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jabloomf1230,
The problem you had with Lost in Translation is most likely a bad batch. It has happened to me quite a few times. Last one was with Nemo. I initially ordered 5 copies and then increased the order to 7. When I received them, 2 were faulty and had exactly the same error. They were probably the 2 additional ones I ordered and probably came from the same faulty batch. I ordered a replacement and the 2 new ones were OK.
However, the problem you had with the 3 DVD set of a BBC science title seems more like what I have experienced and others that have found the same problem. Some PC drives take some time before they can read these discs.
In other words, simple explanations are more likely to be true than exotic, elaborate theories. In the case of what's being presented in this thread, my guess is that these are just poorly manufactured DVDs. I doubt that it's some new form of copy protection, since there is a good chance that it would prevent the disks from being readable on a significant number of DVD drives. People would start returning them to the stores for a new copy or refunds until they got one that worked.
Also, technically it doesn't seem like a bad idea for a protection - ring of bad sectors in a part of the disc which is never accessed by the player. Could it be just a really weird coincidence? Maybe. But it being done on purpose is actually a more logical explanation in this case. -
And it's not like some of the early versions of copy protection for CDROMs were to purposely include bad sectors.
Let's see if I understand what you are saying. Each DVD has bad sectors on it. The bad sectors are in a specific VOB file, which are never accessed when you play the DVD. However, the VOB is included in the IFO file, so if you leave it out, the DVD structure is blown and the DVD still can't be copied. The only solution is to manually recreate the "bad" VOB by extracting the good sectors and then adding in extra "blank" bytes to get the VOB file size back to the correct size.
The DVD will copy, but it will probably take forever (8 hours? More? I've let DVDDecrypter run for 3 hours and it barely got through even a small portion of the bad sectors on one disk) to eventually bypass all the bad sectors. CD ripping programs got around this by assuming that the bad sectors were contiguous and then the software would bracket the bad sector region by the "hunt and peck" method, as opposed to reading every bad sector.
BTW, I've used DVDInfo on my BBC set and the bad sectors are the same size and in the same location on all three disks. Very suspicious. But it still all could be a coincidence. -
This thread has revealed the very best, and the very worst, of the reality of 'free speech' ---
On the one hand, a highly articulate technical analysis of a new potential copying problem, and on the other, inane comments like 'If I can play it, I can rip it' - and personal comments relating to the fellation capabiltiy of a posters' mother.
From some of those of us interested in the technical evaluation of the problem -
Thank you to the serious posters for a fascinating insight as to what may be happening
To the others --- well, the second word is 'off' -
jabloomf1230, maybe (in your hypothetical case) the complete disc couldn't be ripped, but a "movie only" rip would probably work flawlessly.
And pippas, why is "if I can play it, I can rip it" inane? The only hurdles to ripping a disc have been overcome, so anything new would have to require new hardware (a la Playstation discs with bad sectors). Just as shown above, if there's a bad sector not on the movie itself, you simply rip around it. -
Originally Posted by jabloomf1230
Physically there's a single cell in the VOB files that contains all bad sectors. Let's say it is cell ID 1 and VOB ID 1 and this cell starts in sector 1,000 and goes to sector 10,000 (all the numbers are just an example; though for the same movie the bad sectors are exactly the same on every DVD, they are not the same on different movies). The bad sector ring starts in sector 2,000 and goes to sector 8,000.
Then, in the IFO file, the PGC of the main movie has:
Cell 1 (Cell ID 1 and VOB ID 1) - from sector 1,000 to sector 1,199
Cell 2 (same Cell ID 1 and VOB ID 1) - from sector 1,200 to sector 1,399
Cell 3 (same) - from sector 1,400 to sector 1,599
Cell 4 (same) - from sector 1,600 to sector 10,000 (covering all bad sectors)
Cell 5 (Cell ID 1 and VOB ID 2) - from sector 10,001 onwards (this is the first movie cell)
Cell 6 (Cell ID 2 and VOB ID 2) and so on
Then, cell 1 has a cell command to link to cell 5 after it is done playing.
So, as you can see, the actual cell in the VOB file is accessed, but only for the first 200 sectors which are OK. Now, if one would remove this cell the DVD structure would get messed up. The solution would be to smartly skip the bad sector ring and fill it with dummy sectors, as you mention below.
Originally Posted by jabloomf1230
1. The bad sectors ring (in terms of size and location) is the same on all DVDs from the same movie but different on different movies. A replication problem would make the ring the same.
2. The disc has authoring errors. There are two dummy VTSs which are not part of the disc, not referenced in the VMG and never accessed, which contain illegal or erroneous commands and instructions, plus one corrupt IFO file. For this to happen on one movie, maybe an error in the authoring process. For this to happpen on all movies released in the last two months by the same distributor, don't know - very weird. If it was an unintentional error, one would have thought they'd discover it and fix it by now. And what a coincidence - the corrupt IFO file stops the rippers from opening the disc. (BTW, DVD Decrypter in the latest release doesn't have a problem with corrupt IFO files anymore, so they may just as well give up on this one)
3. All bad sectors are in an area never accessed by the player and the discs are perfectly playable. If it would happen on one movie - maybe a lucky (for the DVD producer) coincidence. On all movies - no way, what are the odds?
Finally, just a thought. I'm sure sooner or later there will be a tool which will have some kind of "intelligent bad sector skip and fill it with dummy data" option but it seems that there is some room for workarounds for the DVD producers to introduce new copy protection methods. So maybe it's over-confident to say that because the DVD specs are closed, no new copy protection method can be introduced and the current ripping tools will do for any new DVD releases. -
Well, actually it is fair to say "because the DVD spec is closed", etc. etc.
Because a disc like this isn't, technically, a real DVD.
Philips sued, and WON, forcing the CD companies to call copy-protected CD's something OTHER than CD's. They aren't allowed to put "compact disc digital audio" on them any more, because they don't conform to the spec. Intentional errors are OUTSIDE of the spec.
Same thing applies here. I'm sure Philips will have to sue again, but they've demonstrated a willingness to do so in the past, so it wouldn't surprise me if they did.
- Gurm -
That's a fair point. I've never seen the DVD specs but I guess a DVD with intentional errors could be considered out of spec.
However, not sure if the same can be applied here. It's all a matter of interests. Which company will have the interest (and power) to sue the movie studios over putting workarounds outside the DVD specs to protect their DVDs from copying? Especially in a time when they do have a lot of power (and $$$) and capable of influencing the law makers. Also, since DVD is not owned by a single company and all movie studios are themselves members of the DVD Forum, it would be very difficult to stop them. -
Well one could have said much the same thing about CD's.
The answer, to date, has been "Philips".
- Gurm -
Not sure if this would work, but consider:
AnyDVD recently had a fix to keep functioning in the event of bad sectors.
If Nero DVD-Speed can identify the bad sectors/VTS with a file test, then you could use DVDRemake to rip right from the disk, blanking out the bad VTS (although iirc DVDRM actually ignores unreferenced material and adjusts the IFO. So, use DVDRM to read right from the disc using on-the-fly decrypter and export to hard drive, avoiding bad sector, keeping DVD structure?
It's a lot of payware, though.
I'd try it myself, but have yet to encounter this problem. -
That's the problem - a lot of us that might otherwise be able to fiddle with it cannot, since this only seems to be affecting certain Region2 distributions.
- Gurm -
I know this may fall outside this forum, but any disk that can be played back properly can be fed into a video DVD recorder and re-recorded. This assumes you can take care of copy protections schemes like Macrovision etc which are easy enough. I used this method to salvage a DVD of The Matrix that was marginally playable in most players. You may lose menus and alternate soundtracks etc., but once re-recorded it's simple to copy again.
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Originally Posted by djelimon
Also note that in the above KProbe scan (further up in the thread), the sectors of the "bad" VOB file appear to be located on a portion of the disk that was never recorded. -
MacKemX,
Yes. I prefer Smartripper (but I have used AnyDVD & DVDDecrypter in the past), but you have to "mind the store", so it doesn't get hung up on any of the bad VOB files. Once you hit the bad VOB, you have to manually cancel and go on to decrypting the remaining files. -
I'm confused
what I meant was are you just running DVD43/ANYDVD in the background and then loading the original DVD into DVDRemake without even ripping
it will rip the DVD when it process the files and it won't even need to read the corrupt files if you hide them
you would obviously have to find the location first though of course as well as knowing the Disc is corrupt
I guess you could use the preview on any suspicous PGC's as that may just show corruption or then again it may crash DRM -
I'd imagine ripping with DVD Remake and AnyDVD/DVD43 in the background should work, but I can't try it because I don't have these tools.
MackemX, do you know how DVD Remake works? When you remove a cell what exactly does it do? Does it physically replace the cell with a dummy one and update the cell address table and the PGC cell playback sectors in the IFO file? If so, what happens if you have two logical cells playing one same physical cell in the VOB file? When you remove one, will it remove the other or not?
I'm asking this because there's one thing that may confuse it. The "bad" cell in the VOB file is played 4 times logically in the PGC, i.e. there are 4 logical cells which play this "bad" physical cell. However none of these 4 cells play the bad cell as a whole. The first 3 play few hundred (good) sectors at the beginning and the fourth one plays the rest (though it never gets accessed to be able to play). So if you remove this fourth cell with DVD Remake (and therefore replace the one physical cell with a dummy one), it may mess up the previous three because all reference the same physical cell. And since the first logical cell does get accessed, it may cause a problem if its cell playback sectors are not correct. -
Originally Posted by petar
Regarding the subject of the thread: DvdReMake will not access cell unless it is selected for preview. It may seems like a problem since it is necessary to select a cell to hide it. As a work around you can "hide all" without selecting a bad one and then restore all other cells.http://www.dimadsoft.com - home of DvdReMake and MenuEdit tools -
Thanks dimad.
So, just to confirm, let's say I have a situation where in the VOB file I have
- Cell ID 1 / VOB ID 1 from sector 100 to 999 where 400 to 800 are bad
- Cell ID 1 / VOB ID 2 from sector 1000 onwards
and then a PGC which has three cells where:
Cell 1 uses Cell ID 1 and VOB ID 1 from sector 100 to 199
Cell 2 uses the same Cell ID 1 and VOB ID 1 but from sector 200 to 999
Cell 3 uses Cell ID 1 and VOB ID 2 from sector 1000
If I choose (with DVDRemake, not Pro, for example) to remove Cell ID 1 / VOB ID 1 with a dummy which, say, uses sectors 100 to 199, will it update both Cell 1 and Cell 2 to use sectors 100 to 199 (since, in the original, these two cells didn't reference the same sectors in the VOB cell - it won't get confused because of this?) and then Cell 3 to start from 200 (and modify the VOB cells accordingly)? Also, will it access at all Cell ID 1 / VOB ID 1 on the original disc (assuming I know which is the bad cell and I don't need to use the preview)? -
Originally Posted by petar
so in the preview you would only see 3 preview boxes and not 4. The basic version will look at the cells on an individual cell ID basis, whereas the PRO will look at the cells on an individual cell reference basis. I hope you follow
this is an example below
cell 1 V/C 1/1
cell 2 V/C 1/1
cell 3 V/C 1/1
cell 4 V/C 1/2
as you can see the PRO version allows you to see each cell indivdually and also remove any partial cell individually and the basic version just shows 2 cells (cells 1-3 combined and cell 4). DRM basic does have a cell cutting option but seeing as this cell is in the middle of 3 then you would have to do a few little edits to crop it out and it may not be an accurate crop either
I even went as far as to overlap the 1st two cells via the cell sectors references in the PGC to see what would happen in PRO
cell 1 100-299
cell 2 200-999
cell 3 1000-1099
cell 4 1100-1200
so sectors 200-299 are overlapping
if I previewed cell 1 it only went as far as the start of cell 2 which was sector 199. If I previewed cell 2 then it would show the preview from sector 300 so it was not showing sectors 200-299 due to the overlapping
I removed cell 2 to see what would happen and when I loaded it back this was what had happened
cell 1 100-299
cell 2 300-303
cell 3 304-403
cell 4 404-503
so you can see DRM has removed only the parts of cell 2 that were not referenced in cell 1. I think this is a good thing as it's leaving the other cells original and only removing what it doesn't need. Now imagine if sectors 300-999 of cell 2 were corrupt, how would current programs react to it?. There's ways and means to cripple certain softwares but the studios don't know how :P -
That's a good piece of software DVDRemake Pro. As long as it doesn't access the original cell when replacing it, in combination with AnyDVD it should have no problems in ridding these discs of bad sectors. The only problem for an average user is how to tell which cell is the bad one. I guess one could preview each cell and when AnyDVD hangs, that's the one. Restart and remove it.
Another thing. These discs have two dummy VTSs with errors and there is also a dummy VOB file with errors in one of the used VTSs (DVD Decrypter reports missing headers if you try to rip it). When DRM opens a disc does it blindly open all VTSs that it finds on the disc or only those that are actually part of the DVD and referenced in the VMG?
For example, if I rip a disc that has 3 VTSs and I just stick in the VIDEO_TS folder a fourth VTS from another disc, will DRM ignore it? Also if VTS 3 has VTS_03_1.VOB and VTS_03_2.VOB files and I just stick in there a dummy VTS_03_3.VOB file, will it ignore it? -
Originally Posted by petar
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Originally Posted by petar
As to finding which is the problematic part of the DVD, I suppose a quick check of the IFO with IFOedit would tell you straight away whether the DVD had that sort of structure. So there you go programmers, a simple way to get around it by checking the IFO would soon weed them out
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Originally Posted by MackemX
I wonder what would happen with the preview?. DRM only accesses the 1st frame and needs the slider to be moved you want to preview so maybe it won't crash. If I highlight the Program Chains you can see how it links the cells with the same VOB/CELL ID's so you could remove them all in one go and it wouldn't crash if the first part of the cell is OK which has been mentioned). A person that doesn't understand that well the DVD structure may be able to slide the preview bar and when it crashes/hangs on a particular cell, he'll know that that's the cell with the bad sectors and needs to be removed.
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lol, forgot to post more babblings
before I went out
in the IFO's I have seen from the DVD in question, there are 4 cells to begin with with the same VOB/CELL ID which is 4/1. As you can see they have no frames at all and the film actually starts at Cell 5 which is Program (chapter 1). As petar mentioned there is a cell command that jumps straight to Cell 5 so Cells 2,3 & 4 are skipped because of this so a player would never be affected. The 4 Cells in question also have values of 32 for the Cell Restriction in the PGC and display No. The rest have 0 but the restriction still says No. I know that 64 displays YES (stop trick play) but I don't know what it means
as the Programs (chapters) start at cell 5, something like CloneDVD can't remove this even with ANYDVD as it only works with chapter removal as the 4 Cells are not chapters. Its a clever technique but it will be easy to overcome and some programs can overcome it already
note the fact that this DVD has 2 Spanish tracks as the main audios and one English audio as petar said it's a rental copy. So all those who have ripped it will have been ripping another completely different version which doesn't even have a Spanish version audio and was probably the French audio version. Some were Region 1 as said and as Region 2 isn't out until 23rd of August then maybe those of you supposedly 'backing up' Region 2 are DVD rental guys like Petar as you are certainly not copying a rental are you?
On a final note, it's rather amusing to look back at all the hyenas who jumped on petar for simply not being able to rip the disc even after his attempts to make others believe he had an issue. Nor did some accept the fact that DVD's do and always have had differed differently from region to region with regards to authoring. Same old faces, same old places eating a piece of humble pie. Let this be a lesson to you as you look so stupid (again!) -
It's simple to cripple programs such as CloneDVD and DVDShrink with a few edits here and there and I didn't even get started
. This is just a simple mini DVD with 2 Titles that I authored that plays fine in the player but cannot be accessed by either program. I haven't even added other things I had in mind that would trip them up even more :P. Another quick hack and CloneDVD can't even get to fully open the DVD without hanging
p.s. Sony or any other Studio, I am available for employment at a very high price -
:tumbleweed rolls across the screen:
it's gone ever so quiet hasn't it petar? and not one person has had the balls to admit they were 'wrong' and offer an apology for all the grief you suffered in this thread
who looks stupid now then?
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