Forum Archive Home -> DVD Recorders -> Why have HDD Recorders failed in the US?
Why have HDD Recorders failed in the US? | ||||||||
| mpack posted 2008 Jul 09 12:00 | ||||||||
| I've seen mentioned in a couple of forums recently that HDD/DVD recorders have not been successful as a concept in the US market. I admit that I am (to use the UK term) gobsmacked by this, since I own one myself here in the UK and would never consider going back!
I've only visited the US a couple of times, but both times I've been struck by the excessive amounts of advertising on TV. Surely there are US viewers who find this as annoying as I do? Now one of the advantages of an HDD recorder is that you can set it to record all your favourite shows, meaning you can then watch them when you want to - and when you do you can simply fast forward through the ad breaks. The other advantage to an HDD recorder is that you don't need to look for tapes or disks and find free space on them! Just tell the device to record and it does. When you've watched the show you just delete it or dub it to DVD if you want to keep it. Now, I don't doubt that these features would be attractive to US users as well, so I'm curious as to how come HDD/DVD recorders could possibly fail in the US? | ||||||||
| samijubal posted 2008 Jul 09 12:11 | ||||||||
| PVRs have dominated here. With built in program guides recording can be done with the touch of a button. PVRs record directly from the source, no digital to analog back to digital, so quality is better, at least with satellite PVRs, I don't know about cable. | ||||||||
| Electrox3d posted 2008 Jul 09 12:21 | ||||||||
| The HDD recorders (ummm ever heard of TiVo) were basicly invented in the US. They're in just about every home in some form or another! TiVo's headquarters are two towns over from where I live.
Also AT&T's UVerse is IP TV that streams directly to HDD box, no real cable or satellite needed. What people were you visiting in the US that didn't have this wonderful technology?? | ||||||||
| Epicurus8a posted 2008 Jul 09 12:41 | ||||||||
| There are several reasons, IMO.
1. Many people can't figure out VCRs much less DVD Recorders. 2. Many people don't care about archiving the programs they record. 3. Pressed DVDs are usually available within a short while and offer higher quality & bonus features. | ||||||||
| Soopafresh posted 2008 Jul 09 12:51 | ||||||||
| There aren't enough good shows worth recording, especially with the move to reality based programming in the early 2000s. And the better series (House, Lost, The Office, Curb Your Enthusiasm, etc) are all released in DVD format at the end of the season. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 09 13:42 | ||||||||
Shows perhaps, though even that is a matter of opinion. I use my HDD-DVDRs for timeshifting, on a regular basis. For example, tonight I'll be recording Nova Science Now, as I did last week. (With 300+ or so channels, if you can't find something good and of interest to you, most of the time, you can't be looking very hard.) Also for example, I saved and will archive the NSN seg on digital forgery, from last week's show. Try doing that with your Tivo or cable / sat Co. supplied PVR ! And scarcely a week goes by when I don't record at least a couple movies. (Finding the time to watch them is much more the problem !) As I've said before in many forum threads on many occasions, the Pio DVDRs might have been easier to learn and operate than several higher-end VCRs I've used. But then, maybe I'm just weird and (typically) out of step with mass tastes, in many things. | ||||||||
| GMaq posted 2008 Jul 09 13:44 | ||||||||
Funny.... When I first read this reply, I thought Ahhh C'mon, but the inescapable fact that I haven't had any way of recording TV for over a year now (Other than a Canopus ADVC-100) kind of indicates that perhaps Soopafresh is more right than I'd like to admit, I can't remember feeling like I really needed to record anything, even for the kids. :shock: There are just so many more avenues of entertainment than TV nowadays, perhaps that is one of the reason that DVD Recorders aren't so popular on this side of the pond. | ||||||||
| Electrox3d posted 2008 Jul 09 13:54 | ||||||||
I don't get it. I archive stuff from my TiVo all the time. I burn HD programming to Blu-ray disc and normal stuff to DVD or convert it to MP4 for portable playback... ?? | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 09 15:47 | ||||||||
| Part of the reason HDD DVD recorders aren't more available has to do with our changeover to digital formats. Putting in the required ATSC tuners increased costs and made the price too high, while having no tuner makes them impractical for those of us who don't already have an external tuner of some sort for their cable or antenna service.
Also, much of the content offered by cable/satellite companies is encrypted. Subscribers need to rent an extra set-top box from them or find something that can take a cable card (from them) to record it. It's easiest to just rent a DVR from them in the first place, or get a TiVo. | ||||||||
| gshelley61 posted 2008 Jul 09 16:37 | ||||||||
| The US and Canadian cable and satellite companies (and to a lesser degree Tivo) have done a great job of marketing their own hard drive recorders to the public. The cable and satellite companies particularly have packaged these devices into their digital service plans for little or no cost to consumer. They are very easy to use and popular with subscribers... most of whom are not interested in archiving TV programs - just time shifting them. DVD recorders with built in hard drives never really had much of a chance here against this reality. | ||||||||
| MOVIEGEEK posted 2008 Jul 09 17:19 | ||||||||
| IMO these are the main reasons:
1.PVR's are more convenient with little upfront cost. 2.You can rent or buy tv shows on DVD. 3.Most households have cable or satellite with VOD so chances are you can watch the reruns. | ||||||||
| John posted 2008 Jul 09 17:39 | ||||||||
| I have had the virgin cable v+ for about a year and a half. They charge me 15 pound a month for it. I was so determined to get rid of it at the start of the year I bought myself a dvd recorder with built in hard drive, didnt like the interface. then I bought a stand alone dvr. 7 months on im still using the cable dvr. I have recorded two programs, House and Smallville, I could have done that on either of the dvr. I really need to get rid of it as there is really nothing worth watching on tv IMHO, one thing I like is record the whole series option. which isnt available on my dvd recorder or my stand alone dvr. I suppose, the cable dvr is really more in touch with recording and time shiffting than my stand alone box.
Here in the UK we have to wait longer for the dvd's to come out, and they are also more expensive. | ||||||||
| yoda313 posted 2008 Jul 09 19:16 | ||||||||
| I think part of it may be that the cable/sat companies offer package deals for "free" or low cost rentals for hard drive pvrs (the tivo ripoffs). This probably has made people more leary of spending 200.00 - 300.00 on a harddrive/dvdr when they say "my cable/sat company gives me a tivo like device for free or really cheap, why do I need anything else?".
Personally I do kinda like the idea of a hdd/dvdr since you could timeshift on a dvd recorder. I have a dvd recorder without a harddrive and sometimes miss the instant recording of the pvr when I don't have a blank disc in the unit. Though what I'm waiting for is the "affordable" high def dvr with a bluray burner. That way you could record a 2 hour movie on the harddrive, edit the commercials out and then burn a disc. Or even if they don't let you edit the commercials due to copy flags and all that at least having a physical media disc of the high def content would be nice. though with harddrive prices dropping and capacity going up all the time storing capped transport streams off the dvr is not as impratical as it was a few years ago. | ||||||||
| vhelp posted 2008 Jul 09 20:44 | ||||||||
| My fear is that television is dying, finally. And, we got a first taste of it not too long ago. I mean, maybe some you all can agree with me that ever since the WB and UPN merged, whatever was left in terms of television watching, died somewhere inside this merge process.
I can remember when I used love looking forward to watching my (favorate) programs (and they a lot of them) .. 7th Heaven; Everwood; Gilmore Girls; Smallville; Super Natural; One Tree Hill; Lost; and many more. But after the merge most of these shows dwindled away. 7/Ev/Gil are gone. And Smal/SupNat/One T are barely hanging on a thread and being decided upon removing once and for all. The only show, now, that I still watch is Lost. Everything else is a waist of (and full of) pop-up (annoying) ads and poor script. I can't believe that people actually believe all the reality shows being aidred today. I mean, don't they get it, that they no longer portray the realizm or truth in these reality shows ?? Come on.., everything is scripted today. To do a hard cold reality show requires 24/7 sleep-overs for the tv/camera crew, and much more. Too much money to do all this, and nobody wants to be cramped all the time, waiting for a good catch reality moment. So, scripting a "fake" one is a whole lot easier. And there are plenty of fresh *new* actors looking for work. Its like, people (the writers or whomever they are) lost their mojo. Beauty and the Geek was a good example. The very first series was the real thing, but (taking the above into consideration) the rest (last two) series were scripted, if not "thrown", to coin the phrase. And remember "The Real World" series. The first one or two or maybe three series were real, and the rest became "induced" vomit. I mean, "thrown" scenes and things. As I was saying about the WB/UPN merge.. tv series are not what they used to be nor worth wathing. Even the shows (I used to watch religiously .. smallville and supernatural, and a few others) I stopped watching after the merge. I lost interest. The writing got bad (IMO) and the plots were becoming more rediculousely domb. And, where are the corky shows. You know.., the ones like Friends; Fraser; Cheers; Wings; According to Jim; Everybody loves Raymond; and so, so, so much more. I don't see any of those "type" shows anymore. I think they filled those in with reality "type" shows. But, are they now taking over the regular shows. That is the question. After all, there seems to be more "breaks" or long'er pauses in-between seasons, though Lost is the exception to this. Anyway. So, a lot of television has changed for the worse, and programming has gotten worse, too. So, not much (IMO) for me, worth watching anymores. I mean, I don't even have my tv on in the background like I used to. Its off. Heck, even my tv card is off. So, I ask myself, now, "why would I need a pvr/dvr ?" And my honest answer is, "..I don't !!" ... As I was saying about my fears of television (and where it looks like its heading for) is that it is going the way of the tube and instead is heading to our internet. Very soon, (prob in the next two years or so) everything we watch will now be broadcasted over internet, will prob call it, internet tv or I.TV for short, and you know how that will take off. Everybody will take a bite out of it in their own swing of $$Ka-Ching$$ and tube-tv will die, finally. Catch Lost on www.lost_ch9929.tv ..or something like that. -vhelp 4757 | ||||||||
| Rudyard posted 2008 Jul 09 20:56 | ||||||||
| To all those saying a PVR is better, isnt a PVR the same thing?? | ||||||||
| samijubal posted 2008 Jul 09 21:07 | ||||||||
No. PVRs, at least for satellites, have the HDD built into the receiver. Recording is pure digital instead of digital to analog back to digital. The quality of the recording is considerably better with the satellite's HDD than with a DVD recorder. | ||||||||
| Rudyard posted 2008 Jul 09 21:17 | ||||||||
I dont know what its like OS but in AUS all the HDD recorders ive seen come with twin built in tuners so you are recording directly not via a cable to an external box. This allows you to pause and rewind live tv, watch something whilst taping the other etc tec | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 09 21:51 | ||||||||
No, he didn't say that -- I did. So, just HOW do you do this ? (Please be specific. I'd love to know.) I thought the design of the Tivos and PVRs was expressly to prevent your being able to get the content you'd recorded off of there . . . . | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Jul 09 22:12 | ||||||||
| Members in other countries like the UK and Australia cannot imagine the amount of handwringing and analyzing and debating that members in the USA have been doing ever since DVD/HDD recorders were summarily pulled from the USA marketplace almost three years ago by EVERY mfr at the same time (except Phillips, who cleverly saw a chance for a monopoly). There are a number of large and small factors that killed interest in the USA but it really boils down to two:
First, its a matter of geographic economic patterns. Most (not all, but most) residents of the USA have long since been conditioned to renting decoder boxes for cable and satellite service. We are not directly taxed to support government broadcast networks, so we never developed the utter hatred of monthly cable-satellite payments that you have in Europe and Os. A huge percentage of USA residents were already paying monthly cable fees when cable PVRs were introduced for a small additional charge (say $7 US added each month). It was a very easy sell, and massive numbers of cable/satellite subscribers signed up for the PVR option. Note in America we usually do NOT need to make any large deposit or upfront purchase payment for these devices, we just pay a small monthly fee: in some other parts of the world they do cost as much or more than the price of an independent DVD/HDD recorder so there is still a very strong market for them there. Second, Americans are pigs for convenience- give us more more more! I don't know exactly why we are so much more technophobic than other countries, but we are. The mere concept of having to "finalize" a burned DVD is absolutely lost on the average American and that alone almost singlehandedly killed all interest in DVD recording here. TiVO was invented for Americans, and even THAT initially bombed because it was "too much trouble"- you have to go to a store, buy it, take it home, set it up, hook it to a phone line or internet, make it run your cable box: forget it. Then one day the cable companies had the brilliant idea to license or rip off the TiVO concept and embed it into their decoder boxes. Voila! It gets delivered by your cable company, requires no setup whatsoever, has a completely accurate program guide updated every day thru the cable system, and one-click timeshift programming using the same familiar remote that controls the cable box and television. Result? The cable or satellite provided PVR took America by storm and decimated whatever small market was left here for DVD/HDD recorders. Very very few Americans care about archiving permanent copies of anything, if they want it they buy the DVD which inevitably goes on sale very cheaply here at some point, much cheaper than in other countries. There are many things to envy about the USA, our majority taste in recording devices is not one of them. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 09 22:37 | ||||||||
In the US, the receiver/set top box not only acts as a tuner, but also decrypts the signal for most (if not all) channels, from satellite or digital cable service. Without it, one can't watch TV, let alone record programming using a 3rd party recorder. The receiver/set top box may also convert the signal to analog prior to passing it out. A DVD HDD recorder would convert analog input back to digital prior to recording. If the PVR/DVR is from the cable/satellite provider, it decrypts the signal, tunes, records in digital format, and if necessary, converts what it outputs to analog. One can also pause and rewind live TV, and watch one thing while recording the another, just like with an HDD DVD recorder. 3rd party DVR/PVR's (such as TiVo) that take a cable card (supplied by the cable company) can replace the cable conpany's DVR/PVR's recording functions. Recording satellite TV with one of these still requires a satellite receiver. | ||||||||
| trhouse posted 2008 Jul 09 23:02 | ||||||||
| I archived a few favorite shows that were rebroadcast from the mid 60's to the mid 70's a few years ago when I bought my first hdd recorder. Then the local library started buying studio releases of these shows in dvd format and they charged nothing for borrowing them. | ||||||||
| mpack posted 2008 Jul 10 05:56 | ||||||||
| Perhaps I should explain where I'm coming from in this discussion...
I have a satellite box (Sky) for which I pay a monthly sub, so that concept is not alien to me. Sky does offer a PVR version of their box (Sky+), but when I first looked at the offer it was going to cost an extra £12 a month (forever) and there was no option to archive onto a permanent medium (ie. DVD) so I didn't like the idea much. When I first got my new toy I archived lots of shows, but in truth I don't do that much any more. The HDD/DVD unit is now used as a combination PVR (for time shifting) and DVD player. I almost never watch live shows anymore. At the weekend I check the listings for the shows I want to see, I set up the unit to record them all - and then I watch them at a time of my own choosing - and I fast forward through the ads... :-) Most shows/movies that I really like I will buy on DVD when they come out, so this isn't about saving money on DVDs. It's really about the ability to timeshift, have one box for that which also plays DVDs, plus the added benefit that if I ever do want to archive a great show then I can (eg. the BBC has done several great drama-docs that have never made it to DVD). I must admit that I misunderstood what I'd heard in the other forums. I thought it meant that HDD recorders had failed in the US market, I didn't realize that PVRs were so popular. Though I'd be wary of a PVR from the content providers... what's to stop them stopping you from fast forwarding through ads etc? (have any of them tried any restrictions like this?). (**) I believe there's and additional technological factor too: in Europe the most popular connection method for SD TV is RGB-SCART (so it's like component video, except RGB components) - and the RGB signal is raw analog like an old PC monitor, there is no opportunity for encryption, macrovision etc. Hence you hook up the RGB-SCART on the sat box to your HDD/DVD recorder - get great quality recordings and no DRM problems with archiving them! | ||||||||
| mpack posted 2008 Jul 10 07:52 | ||||||||
Just wanted to make a quick comment on this bit...
I can't speak for the everyone in Europe (or Aus), but many people here in the UK are prepared to pay to receive good extra channels - that isn't what we hate. It's the damned seemingly endless ad breaks on cable and sat channels that drives many people nuts (perhaps that's because the BBC channels show us what TV can be like without them!). Speaking personally, I particularly resent paying a subscription for a premium channel AND being subjected to advertising as well - which is why I feel no guilt at all in using available technology to skip the ads. Fight back! | ||||||||
| samijubal posted 2008 Jul 10 07:56 | ||||||||
| PVR monthly fee with my sat service is only $6. Adjusted for the dollar/pound exchange rate, about 1/4 what it costs there. Maybe now you can see why it's so appealing. With dual tuners in the sat receiver, it's possible to record 2 programs at once while watching another from the HDD or record one program while watching another live. As soon as the sat is turned on the HDD starts recording whatever is on so you can pause at any time and restart any time within an hour or something like that. There's FF/REW at multiple speeds or there's 30 second forward 10 second back remote buttons which make it only a few seconds to get through commercials. I've had no problems recording from the HDD or straight from the receiver to DVD. If a channel does use CP, it will be there wheather straight from the sat or the HDD. There's ways around the CP that aren't very expensive. | ||||||||
| classfour posted 2008 Jul 10 09:42 | ||||||||
| I have both a HDD DVD Recorder and a TIVO. I'd use the DVD Recorder without the TIVO if it would work with my digital cable and had a usable program guide like the TIVO - but it doesn't.
I do transfer recordings from the TIVO to the DVD Recorder for editing and burning to disc. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2008 Jul 10 10:17 | ||||||||
| We here in this forum may be myopic to the fact that the general public has absolutely no clue what we're doing here with archiving and handling digital video. I find when I tell people about our hobby: capturing, editing, video compression, etc. they truly don't understand and then think I make movies with Hollywood and then they start telling me about how "amazing" their talents are and how I should "shoot a DvD" with them...
The point I agree with most in this thread is the fact that a DVR is too complicated a concept for the mass market. Burning? Finalizing? Encoding modes? Chapters? Even installing it is a challenge. I could make the argument too that it's expensive, current TV is terrible (reality shows make me want to vomit), archiving is unnecessary when it's available on DvD, etc. all valid points that further compound its failure - but the key reason was that Average Joe Consumer in the U.S. just doesn't want to bother with such a technological challenge. And I don't blame him. It's us here that are the freaks when you really think about it. I considered my DVR purchase a few years ago as truly one of the most wonderful items I have ever bought. Still do. It applies to me because of my - what I notice are - unique tastes. Yes, I like archiving music videos, some sports games, digitizing a collection of VHS tapes with it - all non-PVR / non-commercial DvD type stuff if you want to archive, but if I was frightened of the technology, or approached the concept of it being overwhelming, then I too wouldn't have been interested in a DVR and just joined the rest of the mass market. | ||||||||
| TBoneit posted 2008 Jul 10 10:50 | ||||||||
However the fact is that there is one big difference between a PVR and a DVD recorder. The fact that you can record a DVD is a big difference. I have both and I use both. A DVD created from a HD channel is decent quality. Is it HD? No. OTOH I could in theory build a library of thousands of DVDs categorized and cataloged. With the DVR it will fill up the hard drive and then I need to delete things off of it to make room for new items. With few exceptions PVRs/DVRs do not allow moving video off and back onto the internal hard drive. The only ones I'm aware of here in the USA are from Dishnetwork with their VIP series of HD DVRs. And that is slow via USB2. It is encrypted. It is tied to a household key so unlike a DVD you can't take a movie from them over to your buddies to watch. I'm thinking of getting the Philips HDD DVD recorder as a spare for when my Pioneer finally dies. | ||||||||
| wabjxo posted 2008 Jul 10 10:58 | ||||||||
I think that's a good idea! I've got three of last years Philips DVDR3575H/37 and am also thinking of getting at least one of the new 3576's cuz I've seen Funai's financial presentation for FY 2007 and one chart shows a 38% drop in player/recorder sales, due mostly to lower sales in the U.S. And Funai makes over 50% of all players/recorders sold in North America. I'm thinking there might NOT be a 357x next year in North America... or ANY HDD DVDRs with digital tuners! :!: :?: | ||||||||
| handyguy posted 2008 Jul 10 10:59 | ||||||||
| As for costs, to rent a dvr unit from Comcast it's $9.95 per month plus $5 for service. That's about 2 years for a decent dvd recorder if you bought one. | ||||||||
| rijir2001 posted 2008 Jul 10 11:01 | ||||||||
| There isn't a single primetime show on that is worth watching anymore. Let alone record. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Jul 10 11:18 | ||||||||
Thanks, mpack, for this and the other clarifications you've offered. In turn we in USA should clarify for you that we CAN indeed fast-forward thru the commercials and ads and promos using the cable/satellite provided PVR: that and the idiot-proof timeshift function are the two primary selling points. And again, note that adjusted for worldwide monetary exchange, we essentially pay pennies for this "proprietary" PVR each month. I assure you, if the monthly rate went up to what you pay in the UK for a Sky PVR the popularity might easily dwindle and bring back demand for the independent DVD/HDD recorder. Also, you are correct that the ability to skip advertisements is under complete control of the cable-satellite vendor, in our country as well as yours. There has been pressure here by USA content owners to make advertisements "unskippable" when using a proprietary PVR or a TiVO. Should that ever come to pass, that might also increase demand for independent DVD/HDD machines. But I don't think it would matter much: Americans will tolerate almost anything as long as they don't have to rewire or learn anything technical to timeshift. A few will balk loudly if they can't skip commercials, the rest will just shrug: since they aren't making permanent copies its no big deal. Another consideration in the USA is we have far higher cable service penetration than anywhere else in the world, and our cable vendors openly defy our government by insisting on individual proprietary decoder boxes despite regulations forbidding them to do that. Since we are forced to use a proprietary decoder box for everything, the ONLY way we can obtain a convenient one-touch PVR is if we rent a decoder box with *built-in* PVR. The moment we try to use an *independent* recorder with our cable service, all convenience is lost. Also note the higher prevalence of really huge flat-panel TV displays in America: these require full HDTV signal or they look terrible, our only source for full HDTV timeshift is the proprietary PVR, so again we are a captive market. Hollywood has more influence in USA than other countries, and they do NOT want consumers to have HDTV archiving ability, so they heavily promote the proprietary PVR as well. Finally, to address your point about DVD playback: in the US, DVD *players* are utterly disposable devices that cost comparably nothing. We buy new ones every year or so as our children break them. For us, there's no particular advantage to having DVD playback built into the PVR. Naturally, most Americans here on VideoHelp are at odds with these majority attitudes, but as PuzZLer stated, we are considered "peculiar" by our friends and family anyway. Ironically, in America all serious interest in video recording died with the introduction of the DVD format in 1997. Once VCRs hit their steep decline, that was the end. Though VHS is hopelessly obsolete, its ease of use will probably never be duplicated in the digital age. VHS and the audio cassette were the only universally understood and accepted consumer recording technologies we will ever see: digital is too contaminated by its computer origins and the restrictions enforced by content owners. RIP, analog... | ||||||||
| Captain315 posted 2008 Jul 10 11:57 | ||||||||
I agree 100%. Between the worthless content, the constant advertising and those damned pop ups, station ID's and everything else they can manage to put on the screen, there is NOTHING worth watching, let alone recording.[/quote] | ||||||||
| Midzuki posted 2008 Jul 10 12:13 | ||||||||
orsetto wrote:
Hmmmm... so the overspoiled kidds of today are just an inevitable consequence of the planned-obsolescence conspiracy? Now I understand everything! :lol: | ||||||||
| CrazyCanuck posted 2008 Jul 10 12:32 | ||||||||
| I own both PVR and HDD/DVD recorders. In Canada, PVRs are sold to consumers, if you have a packaged cable deal, no additional monthly charge for the PVR unless it's a second cable box in the same household. I'm still on CRT TV, so my dual tuner 80 GB PVR is SD (Standard Definition) only, all-digital map which gives a very clean and crisp image on a CRT TV and at $148 with a 3-year warranty, who wouldn't get one. I've actually upgraded my PVR with a 160GB, the most it can accept, so basically killed my warranty with the cable company, but now have a 5-year warranty with Seagate, kinda got rid of the middle man!
Having said all this there's no way that I'd do without a HDD/DVD recorder. I, like many others, like to archive movies, subscribing to a movie channel package, recorded on the PVR which are then transfered down in real time through good S-Video cables, gives me very good results. A have an array of HDD/DVD recorders (ILO HD04, tweeked to bypass CP issues) a Philips 720 with Component in which I send the component output on an ILO R04 (another unit tweeked to bypass CP) into, and more recently I got myself a Liteon 740GX HDD/DVD DL recorder. I've replaced the burners in all my Liteons and ILO recorders. Also have the Philips 3575 for future use (upconverting ATSC HDD recorder). I suspect that next year, after the ATSC transition in the US takes effect, a slew of NTSC HDD recorders will hit the used market only for the fact that the tuners won't work anymore and the consumer will say the heck with this. Me, here in Canada, kinda looking forward in seeing what kind of deals I'll be able to get. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 10 12:42 | ||||||||
gshelley61 and orsetto covered the reasons for this quite well. Some additional misc. comments:
This may be the one detail not mentioned, which certainly impacts utility and convenience: whatever may happen with Broadcast Flags and the like, presumably the Cable / Sat box PVRs will still have the lone exemption to this, even for recording premium content in HD. If they started to say 'No, you can't record this, this, and that', a whole lot of renters are going to start wondering, 'Then WHY should I pay for this ?'
Same answer, quite possibly.
Comparing what I've seen of the BBC with the way it's handled here, I've often thought that I'd rather pay the annual tv tax you folks do, and never have to deal with all the stupid, annoying commercials, or put up with the regular, schedule-skewering "beg-a-thon" interludes on PBS. But that's just me. | ||||||||
| Electrox3d posted 2008 Jul 10 12:52 | ||||||||
Google search TiVo2Go... the free one gives you the program unconverted the paid one can convert it to whatever, ipod etc. I use the free one and just do the conversion myself. They give you a TiVo file but there is a free program that makes it an MPEG2. Its been out for YEARS. | ||||||||
| samijubal posted 2008 Jul 10 14:50 | ||||||||
Wal Mart where I am has an entire end isle display of them for $200. 3575s and 3576s both. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 10 15:57 | ||||||||
| Product advertising is virtually inescapable here, but we learn to put up with the annoyance if we want to be entertained. If I go to a movie theater, there is product advertising before the movie starts too, and I don't mean coming attractions. I remember seeing some product advertising in video rentals too, though not recently.
Fighting back is a somewhat futile exercise. The networks are counter-attacking. Some advertising for programming, network websites, related theatrical releases, and DVD's are overlayed on programming itself now, where it can't be avoided, unless one waits for the DVD version to come out. The US also has a public broadcasting system, but it comes nowhere near to exerting as much influence over the industry as a whole as the BBC does in the UK. A significant percentage of our citizens want to eliminate all government support for it. The reasoning is that cable and satellite service includes plenty of commercially produced cultural and educational programming now, so why should the government subsidize it anymore. PBS is gradually privatizing as funding is cut. As was mentioned earlier, instead of commercials, they run pledge drives every few months, where they show "festival" programming and interrupt it for 7-10 minutes at a time to ask for contributions. This takes up about 30 minutes in a 2-hour period. In the course of giving premiums away as rewards for contibuting, pledge breaks promote DVD's, audio recordings, books, and live performances featuring the personalities appearing in the programming being shown. Even when they don't have a pledge drive running, they recognize corporations that underwrite programming at the beginning and end of shows they sponsor. They thank underwriting charitable foundations and the membership as a whole too, but the clips shown to recognize corporate sponsorship can be commercials. | ||||||||
| yoda313 posted 2008 Jul 10 17:52 | ||||||||
Yep I agree. When people can actually see something working, ie the tape turning, they understand it better conceptually. With dvds its like they don't get it the same way since its all "under the hood". Tivo2go was great when I had tivo for a year. However I was wifiing it to my computer so transfer times were SLOW and you had to strip the protection if you didn't want to pay for their special products. Also for the analog model the best you could hope for was half d1 dvd spec at medium quality since full quality mode was actually 480x480 svcd mode. That meant reencoding for dvds. It was better to take the half d1 at lesser overall quality so you could simply plop in the stripped file and author without more reencoding nightmares. I am intrigued by all the recording off dvr via firewire for hd programming. I just wish it was a little farther along. I'd love for the cable companies to make a usb harddrive for expansion recording like the tivo did for the analog model with western digital. Though I'm sure it would be encrypted so much you'd think it was Fort Nox! (spelling??). | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 10 18:04 | ||||||||
| People understood the technology better, but unfortunatly many still had trouble using VCR's, especially the earlier ones with no remote controls and no menus. Some of the later ones were also inconvenient to use due to bad design decisions.
I only have the VCR I use now because two remote control buttons had to be pressed at the same time to complete timer set-up or begin recording from the channel currently tuned. The previous owner found that difficult to remember to do as well as physically difficult to do. Let's not forget that magnetic media was popular for a lot longer than recordable DVD media has been available for an affordable price, so people had plenty of time to become comfortable with it. | ||||||||
| samijubal posted 2008 Jul 10 18:46 | ||||||||
| What we take for granted these days was a huge thing back then. Before VHS you watched what was on TV at the time and sat through the commercials. Being able to record something and watch it later, even FF through commercials, was unbelievable at the time. DVD didn't have the being the first to the market wow factor that VHS did. With everything available nowadays DVD is just another option in a pool of different choices one can make. | ||||||||
| RabidDog posted 2008 Jul 10 19:14 | ||||||||
| iN THE uK, generally you either had FTA or Sky those were the only two choices. Sky is a paid for satellite service. There is a bit more competition now in that there is a viable cable operator(Virgin) and an upcoming IPTV operator (TIscali). Sky got away with charging high prices as it had disposed of earlier competition and bought up a lot of sports rights(you want football, Rugby, cricket, boxing you gotta have Sky). In the changeover to the digital the authority's are desperate to break the stranglehold of Sky. However in the Uk sky have been the leaders in producing a user friendly PVR box BUT they generally charge for the box up front (£99) AND charge extra every month (£5). the new competitors are undermining this by charging only a low one-off fee for their PVR (tiscali £50, no ongoing charge). Sky also lead the pack in bringing HD programming, however even this will be coming to both free satellite services(now) and digital FTA(b4 crimble).
Everyone in the Uk has to have a Tv licence (£130, then to have sky installed £150 then to get min two mix £17 per month, then to get multi room +£10 per extra room per month, then to get premium sports channels (£20 pm, premium movies £16 pm) to get this in HD add 50% to all prices, except the Tv licence. | ||||||||
| Epicurus8a posted 2008 Jul 10 19:19 | ||||||||
Quite true. "Standard" TV viewing is down because of newer alternatives: VOD, internet viewing, downloading, etc | ||||||||
| samijubal posted 2008 Jul 10 19:32 | ||||||||
| Or because everyone is sick of reality shows, strikes, etc. | ||||||||
| handyguy posted 2008 Jul 11 11:29 | ||||||||
| Commerical time seems to be up too. It's like 25 min per hour during the day & 20 at night? | ||||||||
| MJPollard posted 2008 Jul 11 11:45 | ||||||||
I've always said that the DVD recorder's woeful lack of "ease of use" compared to the VCR is why it hasn't, and likely will never, catch on with the Joe Sixpacks of the world. With a VCR, Jane Housewife could drive down to her local Walgreens and pick up a cheap four-pack of T-120 VHS tapes (brand didn't matter, and every T-120 was the same), stick the tape into the VCR, and hit the big red "REC" button to record her soaps, and they could be played back on any VCR just by sticking it into another VCR and hitting "PLAY". Show me someone that says it's just as cheap, easy, and convenient with a DVD recorder, and I'll show you a bigger liar than any politician. :D | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 11 13:04 | ||||||||
I will, just to see what hardware provisions allowed for this.
And this is supposed to be easier than the DVDR method ? Sounds like your quality options were much more limited, also.
If you have to jump through a lot of flaming hoops, it won't be terribly useful. | ||||||||
| TBoneit posted 2008 Jul 11 13:28 | ||||||||
| Commercials integrated into the show are nothing new. I watched a couple of Burns and Allen shows recently. 1st show and one called Gracies Tax ....
They both integrated the commercial into the show same with the Jack Benny 40 Episode DVD pack for $5 I bought from Walmart recently. The Show leads right into and back out of the Lucky Strike commercials. I fell like getting some Carnation condensed milk for my cerial and LSMFT, Oh My Gosh it rubbed off on me. | ||||||||
| mpack posted 2008 Jul 11 15:39 | ||||||||
It seems so - they complain about this on "The Simpsons" commentaries, ie. that their show has had to get shorter over the years, so these days they have to stick to basic stories with no time for the wild little detours that used to make the show more fun. Also the broadcaster will overlay promos for irrelevant shows, talk over the credits, also the broadcaster will make arbitrary cuts to shorten the length of syndicated runs... etc :-( | ||||||||
| mpack posted 2008 Jul 11 15:44 | ||||||||
Can't agree with that. My Sony HDD/DVD recorder is far easier to use than my old VCR ever was, despite doing a hell of a lot more. Yes, there are a lot of features to discover, so RTFM is good advice. Maybe other models have poor interfaces, I don't know, but it isn't a requirement of the technology! :-) And the bit about just being able to stick a tape into a VCR and hit "record"! Maybe on another planet where everyone had blank tapes handy that would be true, but IME VCRs were all about effing brother taping over your favourite show, trying to find the spot on the tape where that half hour show was recorded, searching for a blank or unwanted section of tape on the tapes you already have, so missing the start of the show you wanted to record - and so on. DVD recorders fix all of those issues, HDD recorders are even better. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 11 16:25 | ||||||||
| The half-hour programs that I record run 22-23 minutes, minus commercials while hour shows run something like 44-45 minutes. I don't record many movies so I can't say what is true in that case.
Somebody's memories of the videotape era are a little rosier than mine. Initially one had to buy either Betamax or VHS formats, depending on the VCR one had purchased. Not all brands of VHS tape were the same. Some were pretty bad and didn't record many times before becoming useless. Eventually the market matured. Betamax went away, and the poorest performers were eliminated from the field, but it took a while. Prices haven't changed much over the years, but then the dollar used to be worth more Recording on DVD's is either cheaper or no more expensive than VHS for me, but I know what brands of -RW discs to buy and where to buy them for a reasonable price. I pay $1 or less per disc for a good -RW disc. No these are not available at any store, but I do buy exclusively from brick-and-mortar stores and wait for sales. I do the same with video tapes. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 11 16:30 | ||||||||
Completely agree with you. Some people would doubtless find a toaster overly challenging. If we're talking about one of the "Prosumer" VCRs, your comments are even more valid. The ease-of-learning / ease-of-use with the Pioneer DVDRs (for the more basic things, at the very least) were pretty hard to beat, I'd say. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Jul 11 17:47 | ||||||||
Oh for the love of... what PLANET are you people from? :lol: We're not talking about anal-retentive wack-jobs like *us* here on the forum who will learn to operate any imaginable crappy hardware interface just so we can preserve our precious Three Stooges shorts, rare Anime, TCM movies, Masterpiece Theater, etc. We're talking about average Joe and Jane and (god help them) their elderly parents. The "blinking 12:00" argument is so old its got hair on it. The people who never learned to set their clocks or timers weren't stupid, they just didn't give a crap. The VCR was primarily a playback device for rental tapes and very occasionally they recorded something live by popping a tape in and pressing the record button. The Beta/VHS war was no more retarded than the BluRay/HDDVD war, and might I add was also stupidly incited by Sony when they refused to accommodate RCAs licensing requests: if they had, we'd all have been using Betamaxes. The early adopters shook out the lousy blank tape suppliers within a couple years, and whether Beta or VHS it still worked exactly like an audio cassette so everyone intuitively knew how to operate the hardware for basic record/playback. To carp about how complicated the fancy "prosumer" units were to operate is beside the point: we're the only fools who bought that stuff, and we knew what we were letting ourselves in for. By 1982 all the total crap blank tape suppliers like Ampex had been driven from the market, leaving "average" and "very good" as the only options. If you stuck to a name brand like TDK, Maxell, Fuji, BASF, Sony or Scotch you were fine. ALL blanks were compatible with ALL recorders and ALL recorded tapes would play on ALL vcrs from 1978 to 2008, with an occasional tracking issue or physically mangled tape getting in the way. All blanks were of EXACTLY the same material as all pre-recorded media, and the system used exactly the same process for recording and playback. If you recorded a tape and saw that it played back properly, you could then store it on a shelf in your basement, come back 20 years later and it would still play on a VCR you bought the day before. The audio/video quality may have been dubious at best, but this was a PARADISE compared to todays digital hell, with untrustworthy brand name media, five different recordable disc types and two recording formats, "finalizing", and even the most flawless burned disc being technically "not up to DVD spec" and thus incompatible with many devices. Add the fact the blank media formulas get changed every six months at whim, needlessly stranding thousands of perfectly good recorders with no compatible discs to record on. Then, cross your fingers and carry a rabbits foot, praying every day your DVD burn was "solid" enough to withstand possible degradation from the poorly manufactured blank its trapped in. I'm not saying I want to go back: DVD captures far more detail off air than VHS ever could, I *love* being able to "pre-edit" on my Pioneer's hard drive with no generational loss, blanks are a fraction of the cost, and the storage space for a large collection is a twentieth of that required for VHS. But I, and the rest of you, are a minority. Most people buy a DVD recorder only to swear "WTF???" and end up using it as an expensive player, or worse yet returning it to the store (anyone check Pioneer's stock price lately? there's a special staff at CostCo just to handle Pioneer returns, never mind other recorder brands). Progress sometimes skips a generation- I hope I live long enough to see terabyte thumb drives take over everything. They would be totally standardized, no moving parts, and have many of the best usability features of old analog tape. Though I'm afraid everyone under thirty is more interested in a worldwide server downloading all content for temporary use: no physical media need apply. | ||||||||
| MJPollard posted 2008 Jul 11 18:43 | ||||||||
That's because you're approaching it from the perspective of someone who's intimately familiar with the technology. Dumb it down to the intelligence and comfort level of the average person, and you'll see where I'm coming from. orsetto: Thank you! You understand where I'm coming from. Like you, I would certainly never go back to VHS, but as you said (very eloquently), you and I and the rest of us here are the minority. The "blinking 12:00" majority has embraced DVD as a playback technology, but when it comes to recording, they're going to stick with VHS until something just as easy, standardized, and dead simple to use comes along. | ||||||||
| RabidDog posted 2008 Jul 11 18:56 | ||||||||
| Have to Disagree about the quality of Blank Vhs tapes.. they have got steadily worse and worse over the years.. the ones you buy now have very loose tolerances, weigh about a quarter of an older tape and last about as long as a half pint of bitter in front of a thirsty Oliver Reed! :P :beer:
Pvrs are very simple to use.. its just archiving to Dvd's thats complicated. | ||||||||
| MJPollard posted 2008 Jul 11 19:00 | ||||||||
Can't argue with that, but for someone like my girlfriend (who constantly records her daily soaps over a couple of tapes for later viewing), they're "good enough." For you and I? No frakkin' way. :) | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 11 21:38 | ||||||||
It all depends on what one is watching as well as what one finds easiest to use. If she's watching soap operas, it's for the storyline, not the picture. If she was recording "Blue Planet" or something similarly pictorial, she'd probably be more highly motivated to use a DVD recorder. | ||||||||
| MJPollard posted 2008 Jul 11 22:03 | ||||||||
Trust me: no, she wouldn't. She'd never get past the technical hurdles that you and I can handle without so much as batting an eyelash. And that's why I feel secure in my point of view, because I'm dating the majority... I see it every day... and I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, why they haven't (and won't) understand and accept even the minor technical challenges of DVD recorders. You have to think like the average consumer. Perhaps the next consumer recording technology (whatever it is) will learn from the lessons of DVD recorders, and they'll be as easy as a VCR for John and Mary Average to use. Meanwhile, Skippy Average, the techno-geek like us, will be finding ways to crack the DRM in them. :D | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Jul 12 01:08 | ||||||||
| Recent "flimsy" blank videotape quality is WAY better than some of the total garbage that came out between 1978 and 1982. There were 3 or 4 brands so bad they would actually damage your VCR five minutes after loading them. The most glaring example was Ampex, who as professional suppliers and the *inventor* of videotape should have known better. Disgusting stuff- new out of the box it would deposit tons of crud on your tape heads, and as it warmed up in the recorder it would actually stink the house up so bad you had to open a window. Yecch. The top tape brands moved to lighter shells to meet a price point, and tape itself got thinner as old clunky VCRs were replaced worldwide by new ones that handled T160 as well as T120. As sales of T160 skyrocketed, it became inefficient and pointless to mfr two tape thicknesses, so they began loading T160 tape stock into all the T120s (if you wanted to pay for it, "pro" T120s were still available thicker.) These were just as reliable as the older tapes and sometimes had improved coatings. Contrast that to todays digital, where one megalomaniacal mfr is OEMing 70% of the blank DVD media out there, and doing a damn lousy job of it. With VHS, unless you were a total cheapskate idiot buying 99 cent tapes at the dollar store, there was always at least one good quality brand at every retailer. With digital, all bets are off on the brands: even Verbatim is slipping now and forget every other famous name, they're all junk. Imagine if the only reliable VHS blank in 1988 was made by TY and you could only order it by credit card thru an 800 phone hotline? Please. | ||||||||
| mpack posted 2008 Jul 12 06:36 | ||||||||
I appreciate what you are saying about the format issues with DVDR, there is some truth to it... but where I take issue is the claim that VCRs were better! In fact VCRs were so notoriously difficult to operate that it became a running cultural joke (quote from Farscape - "Pilot told us to do this, this and this. It's just like a VCR... only easier."). IMO, in absolute terms a DVDR is much easier to use than a VCR, but if a user is not prepared to RTFM then it doesn't matter how easy you make it, they're always going to complain about it being difficult. In fact IMO it's a generational issue. Parents found setting up the VCR a problem, their kids found it easy. The same would be true with DVDRs - and as with tape, problems with the media would sort themselves out in a few years, if the technology stuck around for long enough. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 12 08:50 | ||||||||
I forgot about that. It worked when there were only one or two sponsors per show for the entire season, and syndication was non-existant. However, the practice was discontinued for a few decades because it became necessary to change the commercials to those for the new advertisers when episodes were repeated. Thanks to improved techonology, it is now possible to change the advertising for both commercial breaks and pop-ups overlaying the programming. Lucky us. | ||||||||
| yoda313 posted 2008 Jul 12 09:04 | ||||||||
That might be part of the decline of dvd recorders too. Who wants to archive a bunch of shows with annoying popups that detract from the show? And as mentioned before the dvd releases are usually quite fast and so easy compared to home recording. | ||||||||
| gshelley61 posted 2008 Jul 12 10:42 | ||||||||
| I think there's a time factor, too. Who wants to go through the process of recording TV programs, edit out the commercials, then compile the episodes into DVD-R's for archiving... it's pretty time consuming. It's probably more cost effective (considering what your time is worth) to simply buy the TV series DVD's if you must have them. | ||||||||
| CogoSWSDS posted 2008 Jul 12 10:52 | ||||||||
| Guys like me would take all that time. My son likes the PBS series "Wishbone." It hasn't been made since 2001. It used to be on daily and is now only on weekly. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been released on DVD, only a few episodes have been released on VHS. So I'm recording them for my son to watch. During summer vacation or on weekends, he likes to grab a homemade Wishbone DVD to watch in his room until he falls asleep.
CogoSWSDS | ||||||||
| jjeff posted 2008 Jul 12 11:30 | ||||||||
| OT but not sure if you get the PBS Kids channel, digital OTA in my area, but they have Wishbone on everyday. My kids love it and I don't think it's too bad myself.
Yes not every program makes it to DVD. For those a DVDR is indispensable. I agree with others though, if it does make it to DVD it's Soooo much nicer getting a pristine copy without commercial interruptions/popups/weather alerts station bugs, etc. etc. They'll also be in order in which they were broadcast which is also a plus. Lastly in the case of The Twilight Zone Definitive Edition collections a person will get extras including promos for next weeks show. All in all a much better way to go vs. trying to record off TV. To me the death of HDD DVDRs has to due with their cost as well as complexity. HD HDDs recorders will suffer more from DRM issues than anything else. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Jul 12 13:14 | ||||||||
Some of us seem to be debating two separate but related issues re VHS vs DVD recording for the "average" consumer: one is the ease of use of various vcrs vs various dvd recorders, the other is the assortment of issues we have with digital media and interchange that did not exist with analog tape. I think we can agree VHS was simpler in terms of blank media and basic recording, our opinions diverge when it comes to using the hardware itself. Here I totally disagree with the "VCRs were just as hard as DVD recorders" notion, because with a VCR you could deliberately choose to ignore the difficult settings and operate it like a simplistic Fisher Price toy if you wanted to, which is exactly what most people did. What kills modern video appliances for most users is the absolutely mind-numbing series of nested on-screen menus required to DO anything with them. Nobody complained much when VCRs had program timers you set with real buttons like a clock radio: if you couldn't manage that, you were either incredibly lazy or a total dummy. Once they took all the buttons off the VCR and went to on-screen menus for every function, they lost the average consumer and the "blinking 12:00" joke became the larger reality. BUT, and its an important BUT- you could completely forget those menus, let the damn thing blink 12:00 for years, and just use the Play, Record, FF and REW buttons to do 90% of what most users wanted. This is something you cannot do with a DVD recorder, certainly not if you hope to make a DVD you can share with someone else: you have to navigate the "menus from hell" to accomplish anything useful. Some won't even work at all until you figure out how to set the clock menu, and THAT is what makes people return them in droves and turn to cable/satellite PVRs. Of course, this doesn't explain how those same millions of people managed to use WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 at work, or as the 90s rolled on navigate the internet and use Microsoft Office :? ? When I owned a video store located on the ground floor of a newly-yuppie-infested highrise, I was continually amazed that my young Wall Street go-getter customers would endlessly ask me to go upstairs and set their VCRs up. Sometimes I wonder if there's a gene that specifically resists understanding all forms of video technology in the DNA of most people, and we here are merely the mutants that don't have it? | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 12 13:51 | ||||||||
| One thing about this thread really bothers me. Too many people here give average Joe and average Jane too little credit, insult their intelligence, and assign blame to them that is undeserved. Leave Joe and Jane alone. They found competing products that work reliably and do what they want at a price that they like. It ain't their fault if we are a niche market.
Electronics in general, including home computers, are successful with that demographic. The fact that most people only want to time-shift has nothing to do with how intelligent they are. Ditto with wanting something that is easy to use. If the TV's receiver for the remote control burned out, would you not want to replace your TV even though it worked perfectly otherwise, and you could still use all its features without a remote? The people who created these devices and the media for them largely did a poor job designing and manufacturing their products so they'd be reliable and easy enough to use to compete with alternatives on that basis. Plus, HDD DVD recorders don't compete in price with the US cable/satellite companie's PVR's. As has been stated there are also forces beyond the control of either the public, or the DVD recorder manufacturers, at work. Such as the way the government, cable/satellite compainies and content providers in the USA all conduct their business. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2008 Jul 13 08:42 | ||||||||
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| SmokieStover posted 2008 Jul 13 12:00 | ||||||||
There isn't much to watch, but what I do watch is recorded. I can not put up with live TV which runs 17 to damn near 20 minutes of commercials and self promotion per hour. To add insult to injury we get those animated pop-ups (some which explode across the screen) and channel logos which constantly advertise the latest piece of crap. Anyone tried to watch anything on TV Land lately?.....I swear that channel is nothing more than a showcase or preview for old TV available on DVD. I like many of those shows, but a 25 minute show reduced to 20 or 21 minutes, then cut into 4 parts, with all that advertising between, and the pop-up promos superimposed on what remains, is unbearable, even when recorded. I do manage to watch some PBS shows live, but not in the summer....don't have the time for anything that starts before 9 PM. A cable DVR would cost me $26/month....$14/month for digital service plus $12/month for the DVR. So it's VCRs and PC based tuner cards for me. In the last 6 days I have watched 5 hours of TV thru a VCR (VHS EP), recorded 1 movie on the PC, and I still have 18 hours of recordings on three T-120 tapes. They don't make VCRs anymore (I think I have a lifetime supply), but they make almost no good TV anymore either. Buy what you like when you can. | ||||||||
| JohnnyMalaria posted 2008 Jul 13 12:17 | ||||||||
Strange thing is that that is how I watch stuff now. I cannot remember that last time I recorded anything - at least 10 years ago - because the stuff is utter tripe and/or my time is more important to me. Currently, there are three programs I'll plan to watch (if possible): The Daily Show, The Colbert Report and Ca$h Cab. And if they happen to be on and I happen to be in front of my standard CRT TV, BBC's Newsnight, Survivor Man and any interesting Discovery/Science/Animal Planet/History programs. In recent years, PBS has lost its way. It is no longer commercial-free. At the beginning and end of many programs, there are "messages of support" from large corporations who basically get a free commercial for underwriting PBS. It's also evident that shows originally made for PBS no longer run the ~30 mins or ~60 mins that they used to. Instead they run ~22 mins or ~52 mins so that they can be accommodated by the commercial networks for syndication. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2008 Jul 13 12:41 | ||||||||
So maybe that's why it's not on TV Land anymore since it's not a preview to a DvD set, and is not a promo for a product. Sorry to hear the station's changed gears and destroying quality television content with that ad/cutting crap. I'm a music video junkie myself and the music video stations are doing it a ton lately which is annoying. Nevertheless, I'm so glad I captured that series and then canceled the station's subscription before it was too late. Television has very little worth archiving today any more. And anything worth the trouble of capturing with a DVR is polluted anyway. | ||||||||
| yoda313 posted 2008 Jul 13 12:44 | ||||||||
Yeah for awhile I watched vh1's top20 videos and they had overlays in both the left and right top corners of the screen. Really hard to watch. Distracts from the video thats for sure. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2008 Jul 13 12:52 | ||||||||
I spend 10x more time editing the TV stuff with transitions, fades, crops, overlays, joins, etc. just to remove much of that crap from the stations that if it's available on DvD, it's worth it for me to buy it on eBaY or something to avoid this pain. A simple watermark with the station's logo in the corner is fine. A titling of the song is good too. But there's just too many nuisances today. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 13 13:44 | ||||||||
That's probably not the best-example comment I was looking for in these threads, but I have a really hard time imagining myself as being among any sort of "tech elite." In those case where I happen to find suitable motivation, I plod through the manual, PDF, or guide, then follow it up with online searches -- or ask questions of people who actually know what they're doing, and why something works or doesn't -- to clarify those points I had failed to grasp. From there, it is mostly taking note of steps: A followed by B followed by C -- whether you understand it or not. In those cases where I don't find the motivation, I basically ignore all those other device or program features, until it bites me in the ***. As PuzZLeR was getting at in post http://forum.videohelp.com/topic353487-60.html#1866977 we are mostly dealing with available time and degree of interest here. No rocket science involved. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 13 14:20 | ||||||||
| I never thought I'd have a problem tolerating a station logo. However, WGN America's new one was the limit.
I can't stand the new staring eyes logo and the big blob of bright purple smoke blowing across the bottom of the screen that highlights messages when programming resumes after a commercial break. "Television You Can't Ignore" is the opposite of how I feel about their programming now. They have to be showing something that I want to watch very badly for me to put up with that distraction. | ||||||||
| jjeff posted 2008 Jul 13 14:29 | ||||||||
Awful, that's how I'd describe those eyes. Sometimes I think advertisers don't care how much we dislike something they do as long as we remember who did it. In this case the minute you said WGN I knew where you were going :x I suppose in that way those eyes did their job :| Personally I don't like any kind of watermark or station bug. It's the main reason I bought all 5 collections of The Twilight Zone Definitive Edition. No cra* on the screen or commercial interruptions. Unfortunately not everything is on DVD nor can I afford everything I'd like :wink: | ||||||||
| tac7 posted 2008 Jul 13 21:07 | ||||||||
Once you're used to doing them, it actually doesn't take much time at all. I'm completing another sitcom right now that isn't available on DVD. It consists of 7 seasons and 160 thirty-minute shows. Since that channel's PQ where it is shown is quite good, I record the daily episodes on one of my Pioneer DVDRs at the MN19 resolution. Every time I have six shows recorded, I delete the commercials (there is only one in the middle, and one at the end, so that takes only minutes for six episodes), and then burn them to disk using the nice 6-window Pioneer menu with thumbnails and titles. When finished, I have a good-quality, complete 7-season set that cost less than $7 to make. DVD recorders may have failed in North America, but I have bought 4 so far, and I will buy another one as soon as I can find that particular model in my area. | ||||||||
| budz posted 2008 Jul 13 22:16 | ||||||||
| I record my Japanese movies/shows on my Pioneer 220-s & as back up on my DVR box as well. Luckily they don't have commercials during the episodes so it doesn't take much to edit just the commercials which are sponsors of the station. They're in beginning and ending of episode. I just whip out TMPGE DVD AUTHOR to do the editing/cutting. Then I burn to dvd disc. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 13 22:25 | ||||||||
This is a long and well-established principle of advertising: if you loathe and detest it, that's o.k., so long as you notice it and remember it. Being forgettable is their only cardinal sin. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Jul 13 22:39 | ||||||||
Absolutely agree, and just to be clear my posts were NOT intended to "smear" average Jane and Joe, just to point out that we "archivists" here are much more motivated to actually RTFM and deal with DVD recorders, which truly are a pain to use compared to a VCR, whereas they are not. And I do think it is a really interesting aspect of human nature that millions of people will learn to operate the most convoluted, tedious hardware and software for their jobs but utterly refuse when they get home: it does seem very specific to home video systems- we have 30 years of experience to back that up. Those of us who buck that trend are really consumed by the desire to compile libraries: that doesn't make us smarter or better, just different. The mass market certainly has a right to expect and enjoy the easiest possible timeshifting technology, and I myself am in awe of the cable PVR: once you try the integrated cable box/recorder point-and-click scheduling interface, anything else pales by comparison. The problem is not the consumer, although their lack of interest does diminish the market: the problem is Hollywood using that lack of interest to pressure hardware mfrs not to pursue a limited but strong market niche, and of course our current nasty global economic picture including the dismal dollar exchange rate. Four years ago Pioneer, Panasonic and Toshiba could sit around and accept slow sales of $500-600 DVD/HDD recorders, it was niche market but they broke even and it gave them a "prestige" product to bolster their brand names. Now, forget it: the cable PVR has shrunk that niche market to a fraction of what it was. The mfrs could tolerate one person a day buying a recorder from Circuit City, but they can't break even on one sale per *month* per store, especially selling the machines at half the price they were and at a net 40% profit loss. I had slim hopes that Phillips lone stake in the market would be a placeholder for the Japanese brands to come back once we go purely-ATSC next year, but following their recent announcement they're dumping the product at the end of this year I think the DVD/HDD category is now deader than dead in the USA, with Canada not far behind after Panasonics exit last month. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 13 23:04 | ||||||||
I didn't write that, jjeff did. However, it is only true if people buy the product being advertised anyway. I tried to get used to it for a couple of weeks, but couldn't. Back when they had a normal logo, I would watch or record something on WGN at least a few times a week, but not anymore. What is odd is that they only use the ugly thing during movies and syndicated shows. I didn't see it during sporting events or the news. Too bad that's not the programming that interests me. [edit] If a commercial really offends the public, and the manufacturer gets complaints about their advertising, the commercial is generally removed. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2008 Jul 14 00:22 | ||||||||
But even then, I also did realize that it had attracted me because I had a special interest in video and archiving and wanted to digitize my massive VHS collection. Don't you folk here who have one find that you are one of the only ones that has one (or three)? The only people I know that have one here are from my recommendations. I still recommend it today. What's sad for me reading through this thread was that, in tribute, I honestly regard this as one of my best ever consumer products I purchased because it totally defied "too good to be true" - it was better, like a dream come true. I still today am awed at how productive it's been, and still is - I must have transfered over 2000 disc-loads of content (R and RW) since then to my collection, my PCs for processing and as well for friends and family. It's truly a shame the mass market didn't grasp the concept. I would have loved to see what this technology would have evolved to. My dear friends, this is a sad thread indeed for me. | ||||||||
| mpack posted 2008 Jul 14 06:00 | ||||||||
It occurred to me last night that apart from no winding/rewinding, there's another blatantly obvious advantage to DVD recorders that hasn't been highlighted in this thread so far (I think) - which is... it's digital! The point? Well, my interest in VHS to DVD conversion projects was revived recently when boss at work handed me a VHS tape of a company promo (expensively made about ten years ago) and asks if I can rescue it, meaning of course to digitize it and thus prevent it from disappearing into the dustbin of history for lack of equipment to play it on. At first I groaned - memories of fights with frustratingly crappy PC capture tools, of which a more or less endless series seemed to be needed... then I remember! I own a HDD/DVD recorder, and even better my old VCR is still in the chain and could do this conversion in its sleep! It was only a 50 minute video, so 60 mins after I got home I had my finalized DVD. ... But that wasn't the last step. The really big advantage with DVD is that you can walk up to any modern PC and it can read the disk. So, next thing I did was rip the title off the disk onto my PC. I gave the boss both the DVD and the "soft form" video on a USB stick. The latter will now propagate from PC to PC and hence live for ever (and it only took a couple of gigs of disk space - a minor overhead today, and no doubt a trivial one tomorrow). It's so hard for me to believe that a device as useful as this can fail to be a success in any market. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2008 Jul 14 06:48 | ||||||||
I agree with your post totally - the no-tape-no-rewind/forward stuff, the ease of use, the ease of transfer, the digital flexibility, the total practicality of the unit and its advantages over VHS tapes that have been used for decades previously (ever try editing VHS tapes with two units? Arggghhhh...). Yet it's still too complicated for people to understand that a DVR will simplify their busy lives if they like to archive. And I too went through those endless battles for years with stupid products that just wouldn't work as you mention here.
It's just too bad such a gem didn't make it to primetime... | ||||||||
| SingSing posted 2008 Jul 14 10:25 | ||||||||
Plus a lot of viewers defect to Youtube, video game, ..... | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 14 13:12 | ||||||||
If your provider happens to carry that channel, you might want to check out MHD (which turns up here around 6 down from HDNET). I don't know if this belongs to MTV, but it does not seem to mirror their program schedule. I mainly notice it when crossing that portion of the schedule grid, or when flipping through channels. But their programming looks to be much heavier on concert sets from different artists, rather than music videos. Had artists / groups of interest to me happened to be on at the right time, I might have paid more attention to this channel, but in just the quick glimpses I've had of it, I did not notice much in the way of commercials, or intrusive logo - promo type junk. (And it's in HD.) If so, maybe there is some more like this, buried somewhere amongst the 300 channels ?
Well, I've got a few disc storage boxes now that argue otherwise -- mostly movies and documentaries, some concert material and shows. I would usually not have bothered, for anything that did not have real merit, and such material is always very much in the minority. So far, I'm getting by with 200-disc or 300-disc boxes, trying to avoid anything larger. | ||||||||
| amckinney posted 2008 Jul 16 15:21 | ||||||||
Dating it? Heck, I'm married to it, and it's not like she's "too old" to get it: she's only 35! It's not even just an age barrier. her 20-year-old cousin bought one of those "tuner-less" recorders at her local Wal-Mart at Christmas with the intention of backing up all her parents' old home movies to DVD as a present. She burned over half of the tapes to discs, and the machine failed. Problem is, when they went to play one of these discs in a regular DVD player, it wouldn't work and they couldn't understand why. They asked me what could be wrong (I'm the unofficial "technical advisor" for our families). When I asked her if she finalised the discs, she didn't even know what that word meant, let alone that it had to be done! Of course, she hadn't read the manual thoroughly, but as you and others have said, the average consumer wants something they can just pull out of the box and start using. DVD recorders, to the average non-computer geek, are not such a product. One thing was mentioned about the reliability of tapes vs. discs. This has always been a big concern of mine, and is one of the main reasons that I came to DVD recording a bit late to the game. Horror stories of people losing valued burnt discs within mere months worried me (and still do), and as for backing stuff up to DVD, I'm still of the opinion that if it's important, you'd better hang onto the original tapes, and you just don't know when that burnt disc is going to turn into a coaster. When I back up all my 8mm home movies some day, I'll probably stick the tapes in the lock box at the bank. I certainly won't throw them in the bin! | ||||||||
| amckinney posted 2008 Jul 16 15:25 | ||||||||
Except, of course, when the DVD companies trim scenes and replace the original music due to copyright/expensive royalties, etc. One recent example for me is ITV's Secret Diary of a Call Girl. If it isn't bad enough that the official DVDs are outrageously expensive (came out at 26 quid, now still high-priced at 16 or so, all for eight half-hours of content), but they went and replaced all the original music on them! I just had a friend in the UK record them from ITV for me for free over the holidays and made my own boxart. At least what I've got are the original, unaltered versions! | ||||||||
| jjeff posted 2008 Jul 16 16:48 | ||||||||
| That's a good point. They do the same here. Many newer popular shows with current sound tracks get altered for DVDs. Seems they don't want to pay for the licensing of the popular songs.
Most of my interests are older shows where this is not a concern but it would bother me if I remembered the original broadcast version had one song and the TV on DVD version had a different. I haven't heard of editing on TV on DVD, in fact most of the time they advertise "extra" scenes on the discs I've seen. Don't ask me how they can do this since it was originally shot for TV anyway but maybe they have different versions for European TV and a more edited version for US TV, and the DVDs are more like the European version. | ||||||||
| amckinney posted 2008 Jul 16 17:16 | ||||||||
Actually, some older shows have fallen victim to music replacement, too. The Region One releases of WKRP IN Cincinnatti and Happy Days are a couple of examples, and one currently-notorious example is The Fugitive: Season 2, Volume 2, where not only "songs" have been replaced, but the entire musical score! The only original music they left intact was the theme. They even altered the ending credits to "hide" the changes. As for editing, it happens more often than you think, though usually, it's probably by accident (like on some episodes of Soap, shorter "for-syndication" masters were used for a few episodes) while in other cases, (like on Mama's Family) shorter syndication prints were used on purpose because that's what the DVD company had the rights to, the original masters residing in the hands of producer Dick Clair. I think Cosby Show and Alf are two more examples were syndication versions were used for the entire season's-worth of episodes. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2008 Jul 16 20:44 | ||||||||
But there are a few Canadian 24hr specialty music video stations like 24hr retro or 24hr metal/punk/alternative, etc. Even though they were excellent, and well worth the price to have clean, untouched music videos, they have been cut back due to lack of demand. It's just not as big here (or probably anywhere) unfortunately. In fact, it seems like more rule than exception when "reality shows" have taken over music video stations in order for them to survive in general - which is an indication of yet another reason why the masses today may find a DVR too complicated (AS IF there's anything worth archiving anyway). ...nothing sucks more than recording a loved music video only to see during playback a popup overlay flashing and advertising for a program that will feature has-been junkies huffing gasoline while slapping their trash spouses. How enlightening and enriching... | ||||||||
| p_l posted 2008 Jul 16 20:45 | ||||||||
| And in some cases, the licensing rights for the music on a TV show preclude the issue of a DVD altogether; think of The Wonder Years, for example. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2008 Jul 16 21:44 | ||||||||
That has been my opinion since Day 1 of the digital age. The tapes have a well-proven track record (if properly stored) . . . even though the VCRs will go bad mechanically long before the tapes do, and you have to wonder whether there will still be competent repair available for the decks. I'd say, use only TY blanks for your disc media, and be prepared to rip / re-burn them periodically. At least until some more durable technology comes along. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2008 Jul 16 22:29 | ||||||||
| ||||||||
| TBoneit posted 2008 Jul 17 09:17 | ||||||||
The extra scenes are easily possible for TV shows. They don't just shoot only 22 to 23 minutes of show for a 1/2 hour show. There are always bits and pieces and scenes that don't make the show due to running time constraints. I don't bet but on the fact that they keep those bits and pieces I'd make a bet. Remember the Bloopers Shows where they show bloopers from TV shows? Where did you think they came from? | ||||||||
| amckinney posted 2008 Jul 17 09:36 | ||||||||
Trims, deleted scenes, bloopers, etc. are saved more these days than in years past, though. After older shows went "out of production" (i.e .off the air), there was no real reason to save all the trimmed footage. Some TV studios keep more things than others (the extra footage on the Battlestar Galactica (1978) Complete Series was a happy surprise), and in some cases, this material is destroyed by the producers themselves, not the studios, or goes "missing" (Gene Roddenberry and Majel backed up a truck to Desliu one day and stole all the extra FX footage, deleted scenes, trims, etc. of Star Trek one weekend when security was light, and, thinking it would never be missed, cut it all up and sold it through Lincoln Enterprises). Also, if this stuff even does exist for older shows, how well is it catalogued? Since there was probably little perceived re-use value of this stuff until the DVD age, a lot of old deleted footage is probably sitting in a dusty corner of an archive and may or may not even be indexed properly as to what is included. I'm sure the trims for more modern shows are probably fully described and are more readily accessible and would probably require less clean-up to even be used. Then, you get into legal clearances issues. Would actors have to be negotiated with to use deleted footage? Majel Barrett told me once that one reason the Star Trek Bloopers would likely never be released on home video was that the artists would have to give consent, and I seem to remember her going on to say she knew of one or two who didn't want this stuff available commercially. For modern shows (like Scrubs) I'd say it's pretty certain this stuff is all negotiated, worked into contracts, etc. up-front. | ||||||||
| SLK001 posted 2008 Jul 17 12:05 | ||||||||
| Content aside, I believe that it is a patent issue. The holder of the original DVR probably sets the licensing fees too high to encourage generic machines into the market.
I don't know (and really don't care to find out), but I believe that Tivo owns the patent - thus Tivo rules the roost over here in the "colonies". | ||||||||
| yoda313 posted 2008 Jul 17 17:43 | ||||||||
Are you serious? Or do you mean when you went to a Star Trek convention? I'm asking honestly as a Star Trek fan, not baiting you but interested sincerely. | ||||||||
| amckinney posted 2008 Jul 18 07:17 | ||||||||
No, this was from Majel herself (and was not said at a convention). She also told me how the STNG season one bloopers "leaked" to the public. She brought the tape to a convention for a screening and entrusted it to a fan to "run" it for her. He managed to get a copy of the tape run-off before returning it to Barrett (may have even had things set up to copy while it was being run). | ||||||||
| RabidDog posted 2008 Jul 18 11:06 | ||||||||
| That really does not compute! Over here in Blighty its obvious when the Beeb shows USA shows as the actual running time is only 44 mins in the Hour.. A beeb show is 60mins on the Hour.. so its def worth yanks buying those DVd's. They do also change the title music etc for some shows eg the wire, shown on Fx.
Footnote I once asked Kowalski if he liked "Voyage to the bottom of the Sea". STK: Hey capt is this a dangerous Mission? yep! Right, all three of the most senior people on the enterprise should beam down together then + 1 unnamed crewman | ||||||||
| amckinney posted 2008 Jul 18 11:10 | ||||||||
Well, don't forget that most USA shows do not run for the full hour (not even HBO shows). A standard modern US drama is less than 45 minutes these days, compared to approx. 52 minutes in the 1960s. Commercials keep encroaching more and more as the years go by. Also, bear in mind that in the UK, your runtimes of US shows might be shorter than our due to the "PAL-speedup effect". PAL conversions of US film-based material plays 4% faster than its native speed (assuming the PAL masters were made from the original film and not from NTSC tapes)... | ||||||||
| yoda313 posted 2008 Jul 18 19:29 | ||||||||
| @ amckinney - Cool! Thanks for sharing. | ||||||||
| vhelp posted 2008 Jul 18 19:45 | ||||||||
| Regarding NTSC air times..
Actually, you might want to reconsider those figures for the stuff broadcasted. The reason I say this is because you forget one important and overlooked point, that our shows are stretched or squeezed into their respective timeslots for various reasons. So, a 44 minute ntsc show might actually be 50 minutes. Think of it like a PAL->NTSC conversion, or is it the other way round, when they time expand ntsc program contents. Yeah, so you just have to decode the TEC (time expansion or compression -- depending on what was source encoded for) and the 44 minute might be a bit higher than that. When I dicovered this on my own, I came to realize that this was *ALWAYS* the case with our source, but it was dependant on various things that even I don't know or understand, why.. they just were. Shows even from the 70's ERA and shown today were time expanded back then, only we didn't realize it and blaimed it on broaken telecine or missed/ dropped frames in our earlier (pioneering) days of capturing video from analog, even digital sources, yester day and still to this day. I don't know the math behind it, to give you the exact *real* time for these shows, but thinking about it just makes my head hurt.. I'll leave that one up to the more math-challenged guru, otherise, I give up :x -vhelp 4763 | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2008 Jul 26 15:44 | ||||||||
It may be that we are not the only ones to dislike WGN's "staring eyes" watermark. It's gone! I resigned myself to seeing the ugly thing again to watch a missed episode of a favorite series recorded eariler in the week, and saw they have changed to a simple "WGN America" as their watermark. Much better. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 08 06:22 | ||||||||
| Dvd recorders have failed in the U.S. because Americans have been stupid enough to use TIVO. FYI, TIVO SUCKS! You have to pay monthly fees for TIVO dummies. A Dvd recorder with hard drive allows you to record to both hard drive and disc, and allows you to play dvds as well, all in ONE machine. And once you buy the machine, it's yours to record and play to your heart's content with no subscripion fees to pay monthly. Can't anyone see this? Why would you want to clutter up your living space with both a DVR/PVR and a separate DVD player when you can have both in one machine that you don't have to rent or pay subscription fees for? | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jun 08 11:28 | ||||||||
| Because, nina96, as has been pointed out by many others earlier in this thread, American television service is unlike that anywhere else in the world. We have something like 85% cable/satellite penetration, and of that 70% opt for premium channels that require a decoder box. We like our sports, we like The Sopranos. But most of us hate HATE H-A-T-E trying to make a DVD recorder cooperate with a decoder box for timeshifting. It requires a bit of coordination and pausing to think first, and the initial hookup is daunting. With a TiVO or cable/satellite PVR, you pay a monthly fee for convenience and performance that cannot be matched by any "100% owned by the consumer" recorder. The monthly-fee recorders offer "one-touch, point to the tv show and click timeshifting" that even Helen Keller could operate, plus they timeshift in 100% high definition. By contrast, dvd and DVD/HDD recorders are a nightmare to timeshift with and they cannot record in high def. If you have a 42" screen and your husband likes sports, get a TiVO or risk your marriage.
Myself, I agree with you. Owning and controlling my own hardware and being able to burn permanent DVDs of whatever I want to keep are more important to me than timer convenience or high def. I cope with difficult timer coordination, and I'm perfectly happy to watch TV shows or old movies burned to standard DVDs on a smaller 22" or 26" flatscreen (which, by the way, was the largest typical living room television size until 2001: how quickly we forget). Unfortunately you and I are a very tiny minority, nina96, everyone else feels "the bigger, the better" and "I can create a bogus Excel spreadsheet in my office so complex it crashes Wall Street and destroys the world economy for a period of three years, but when I get home I want my TV recorder to read my mind and program my shows for me, because I'm wiped out and can barely tell my ass from my elbow". Such is progress. | ||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2009 Jun 08 11:31 | ||||||||
| As a Brit, where they archive a great deal to watch another time, I think its because to North Americans TV is not a hobby like it is for the Brits.
The Brits love their TV, have many oldies channels and I think we would all agree the output quality is better, if only because it does not fill up with commercials, 30 seconds after the start of the show. The need on a dvd recorder to learn how to set the channel.timer etc is more complicated than a PVR. Although I am of an age group, mid 50's, where most TV/movies are not aimed, I archive nothing from broadcast TV, preferring to borrow DVD's from our fantastic local library or on line rentals. "The annual cost of a colour TV licence (set by the Government) is currently £142.50. That works out at less than £12 per month - about 39p per day for each household. A black and white TV licence is £48. The licence (whether colour or black and white) is free if you are 75 or over, and half-price if you are registered blind, although you still need to apply." http://www.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyproducts/getsky So for about 70 pounds a month (Doing the currency conversion is an excercise that has limited value) , you get all the BBC, which is 2 main commercial free stations, 5 national radio stations, commercial free, and countless local radio and all the channels like discovery, etc. and Internet and phone. I think North American cable.satellite is expensive because of the content, I would love to see a BBC style thing here, but again, the interest in the subject is not what it is outside North America. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 08 11:41 | ||||||||
| If the only goal is to time-shift TV viewing and service is obtained via an antenna or an analog cable system that does not require a STB, buying an HDD DVD recorder is a viable option. ...But antenna-only viewers are less than 20% of the population, and the number of analog cable subscribers is dwindling because several cable providers, including mine, are now in the process of moving anything beyond 20 or so mostly local channels to a digital service tier
If consumers need an STB, renting a DVR from the service provider is often less expensive and more convenient than using their own equipmant. TiVo is a different story because of the monthly service fee charged in addition to the cost of the hardware, Using myself as an example, once Comcast switches me to a digital plan, using my own equipment would require renting 3 STBs, one for the TV and one for each recording device. They'll be giving me a reduced rate for a while, but the normal fee is $7 per month for each STB. None of my equipment includes an IR blaster to change channels on the STB, so I would have to program my recording device to be on at the right time, set up the STB to tune the correct channel, and remember to leave it on. Plus, I will have to buy new recording devices eventually. Instead, I could rent one STB for the TV, and a DVR that allows me to watch one channel while recording another, or record two channels at the same time, and I would only need to worry about programming the DVR. The regular fee for the DVR is $11 per month. That's $18 vs $21. Maybe I can get by with just a DVR. Thats $11 vs $21. | ||||||||
| jman98 posted 2009 Jun 08 11:49 | ||||||||
Ding! Ding! Ding! I think we have a winner here. I am the ONLY person in my circle of friends and family who ever archives TV shows to DVD discs. The ONLY one. I have friends and family who have Tivos (these are a specific brand of DVR in North America) and others with DVD recorders and nobody in either group has any desire to keep even a single show archived. One of my friends who has a DVD recorder simply buys the DVDs of shows he likes when they come out. He does use his DVD recorder but the only thing he ever keeps is copies of American football games that his favorite team plays. Those are not available for purchase anywhere. | ||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2009 Jun 08 12:04 | ||||||||
| I gotta tell you guys (Isn;t it lovely when an immigrant learns the local inflections) , I love this forum for its humor if nothing else.
Now if only you could script write for so called comedy shows, most of which look like an update on "I love Lucy" | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Jun 08 17:40 | ||||||||
I continue to be a bit surprised that the Japanese market (at least there -- because they have a demonstrated history of being "gadget crazy", with a lot of very pricey toys that are never seen over here) never got something like a Pioneer 460 / 660 with a big HDD for Hi-Def plus a Blu-Ray burner. But I'm pretty sure the economics of it would not add up, just for that market, not to mention the movie studios nixing it big time over there much as they would here. So, I wanted to ask a related question. Do you think it would be possible for someone who could assemble a regular PC and had a nice budget to build their own equivalent-function HTPC ? (I would seriously consider doing this, but then I'm weird that way.) The issues I can see right off the bat: 1. Size / form factor. (Probably solvable.) 2. How do you get it to turn on by itself at designated times ? 3. How do you get it to change the STB channel at set times, as required ? (Most likely you can't, though the STBs generally have their own timer function.) 4. Recording parameters control, like the MN settings. 5. No dedicated "OS" with relatively simplified editing, thumbnail creation, finalizing etc. Probably there are some other problems I'm overlooking. [A Note to the Forum Police: I'm sure that some will disagree, but I feel that 'B' flows directly from 'A', so this is still on-topic. If you can no longer buy a standalone DVDR in the U.S., what other option do you have than to -- in effect -- make your own ?] | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 08 17:44 | ||||||||
| As far as #3. Hauppauge makes some tuner cards with an IR blaster to change channels.
Getting the PC to turn itself on is the tough part. The PC might need to be left in a sleep/standy mode. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2009 Jun 08 20:35 | ||||||||
Maybe the big show - the actual Super Bowl game - can be purchased/downloaded/rebroadcast, but the mini classics along the way to a championship season are the true gold (and black :P). I would have bought these without blinking if they were available, but I knew they wouldn't be unless you record them the first time. My point is - thanks to my DVR I have these irreplaceable gems forever. :) Five years later after my purchase, which includes returning to this thread a year later, I still adore my DVR. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 08 23:37 | ||||||||
| If a Blu-ray recorder becomes available in the U.S., the problem of the inability to record in high def is solved.
A blu-ray recorder with 2 tru-way technology would eliminate the need for the stupid box. You could get your all-important Sopranos without need for an stb. A Blu-ray recorder can also play both Blu-ray and dvd discs. And the timer recording system is SIMPLE, especially if you set it up manually, just set it one time for each show you watch regularly and you will not have to reset again unless your power is out for a long time. My Panasonic dvd recorder was out once for over 24 hours and none of my settings, or programs already recorded, were lost. --A big hard drive holds a ton of shows that you can delete or record to disc. --One touch recording --Recording one channel while watching another --The ability to pause and rewind while recorded programs are still in progress --The abilty to both play and record in one machine --The ability to transfer your old vcr recordings to disc --Ability to edit recordings, removing commercials, relabeling titles etc And the machine is yours, no rental, no subscription. I repeat, TIVO sucks, and is totally unnecessary. Americans are allowing themselves to be duped and ought to be demanding that the technology that exists should be made available in the U.S. Instead they choose to pay more and get less and waste space. | ||||||||
| PuzZLeR posted 2009 Jun 09 06:31 | ||||||||
| Nina96 I agree with you totally, but you're talking to a forum like this which is frequented by individuals able, willing and preferring better control of their video recordings/captures. Even if it would be easy indeed to setup anyway, it wouldn't be for Consumer Average Joe and his mindset when it comes to the complexities of "this video thingy".
It's really about marketing, not what's best. TIVO, although would suck among most folk here, still serves a purpose just like maids do when you can clean your own house, or bank tellers do when you can save service charges online or with a bank machine, or when a service attendant fills you up at the pumps when you can easily fill up on gas on your own and save a few pennies. TIVO's a service. It's unfortunate that such crap is preferred so much more than manual setups to the point where it actually contributed to the end of DVRs. I went to the local electronics chain here in Canada just last week and now they had none more on display. Very sad indeed when I have fond memories of my DVR purchase back then. And speaking of blu-ray recorders, I would drool for something you describe. But it's funny. I bought my DVR in 2004 thinking that this will carry me for a few years till blu-ray (or maybe HD-DvD) recording units hit. Where are they? I'm still waiting. :( | ||||||||
| joecass posted 2009 Jun 09 10:28 | ||||||||
| Toshiba of Japan made some Hi Def recorders with a hard drive, not available in the US market. Since Toshiba's HD format
lost to Sony's Blu-Ray, I guess it will be up to Sony to come out with Blu-Ray Hi Def recorders with hard drives with the ability to burn content to Blu-Ray discs or DVD http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2007_10/pr3101.htm | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jun 09 14:52 | ||||||||
Sony seems to have handed off everything BD (except the PS3 and a couple of players) to Panasonic, which is planning to market some pretty slick BluRay/HDD recorders. They cost something like $2000 and up, natch, and are only being sold in select parts of Europe, Australia and New Zealand, but they're out there. Whether they'll reach North America before being eclipsed by holographic recording on sugar cubes is anyones guess. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Jun 09 15:09 | ||||||||
| I thought there already were Blu-Ray burners you could stick in a PC -- albeit slow and expensive -- but I haven't really been paying attention to this "market" or component category, thus far. | ||||||||
| SatStorm posted 2009 Jun 09 15:53 | ||||||||
| Meanwhile, in Europe, we have USB PVRs now!
Those are typical satellite / terrestrial / cable recievers with a USB or e-SATA port. You hook there any external USB (or - more rare - e-SATA) HDD (or stick), push the red button on the remote and that's it! What you see, is recorded. You can playback that with the same reciever or you can carried it "as is" to your PC. Also time shift, pause, ff, rew, etc... All are there. And this is possible with both SD and HD broadcasts! Also, all the receivers with an ethernet port, you can connect them to your home LAN and store the broadcast directly to your PC. A 2 click process. I don't understand why to get a standalone recorder, when there are so many alternatives. I mean: Hook HDD / USB Stick, press rec. No quality loss, simple data storeing. How could it be easier? | ||||||||
| edDV posted 2009 Jun 09 16:02 | ||||||||
You can do that here in the USA (via eSATA) but the files are encrypted and playable only on the cable/sat tuner that recorded it and then only if you are current in payments. | ||||||||
| joecass posted 2009 Jun 09 16:02 | ||||||||
| yeah there are Blu-Ray burners for PC, we're hoping for Set Top stand-alone player/recorder,
Looks as though it will never happen here in North America. What gets me is, manufacturers have pushed "High Definition" on consumers for many years, all the technology to record HDTV is in place, yet there aren't any machines available that will do (at least what I want) on the US market. I want to be able to record, edit & burn to disc for archiving purposes, any content broadcast on my cable line or over-the-air digital HDTV. Oops ! Sorry, can't be done. Here's my Wish List : A machine similar to Panasonic EH67 in appearance with.... Digital/analog ATSC/NTSC Dual Tuner 1.5 TB SATA hard drive e-SATA ports for expansion Combination Blu-Ray/DVD DL burner with the ability to read/write every kind of disc ever invented including DivX Multiple HDMI/Component/Composite/VGA/Firewire Inputs & Outputs Maybe 10 to 20 years from now ? | ||||||||
| SatStorm posted 2009 Jun 09 16:06 | ||||||||
| Officially this happens here too. What differs, is the so called "unofficial firmwares" that bypass all those limitations. Those unofficial firmware / images, are given away by the manufactures, same way it is happening all those years with the region hacks on the DVD Standalone players. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jun 09 16:09 | ||||||||
You are very fortunate to have this option in your country, it sounds perfect! Unfortunately there are no such alternatives in North America, and they are unlikely in the near future. Each region is ruled by different interpretations of copyright law and each region is influenced (or not) by the corporations that own the content people want to record. As the home of Hollywood Inc., North America is the most locked down region and the most frustrating for those who like to archive their own recordings. A version of your "USB stick" is in the works for us, most likely in the form of a revised SD memory card format backed by Hollywood. Hopefully it will come to fruition and we'll actually get to buy it, we've been fooled before by such empty promises. | ||||||||
| edDV posted 2009 Jun 09 16:14 | ||||||||
| I wish we got unencrypted near free access to French or Italian wines. Wait, we do when the dollar goes strong. It doesn't seem to work with BMW or Mercedes. | ||||||||
| SatStorm posted 2009 Jun 09 16:22 | ||||||||
| AFAIK, you can buy a Dreambox (or other alike recievers), load a couple of CCams & plug-in's and use your NDS card with it.
You can even use DVB PC cards with phoenix smartmouses easy, but that needs PC. The problem is how to buy that equipment there and how informed about those matters are. Regarding Copyright Laws, whatever the Big Ones wish to call same things, all those are just modern replacements of VCRs. Big Ones try to make us believe that this is not the case here, but people don't bite it. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 09 21:16 | ||||||||
| PuzZler I agree. I'm not saying we should eliminate TIVO for those who CHOOSE to shell out unnecessary dough. I just think we ought to be granted the option to take advantage of the technology that we know is already out there but is currently forbidden to us. We ought to have a choice. | ||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 Jun 09 22:05 | ||||||||
| Tivo wouldn't be so bad if it had an integrated "save to DVD" function. Something written in low-brow terms that even a vapid teenage girl would understand.
But oh no, we have to have complicated jargon in DVD devices. And everybody has to fight over who gets 25 cents in the patents per unit. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 09 23:06 | ||||||||
At present, cable and FIOS can't provide cable cards that allow true 2-way communications. They are still working on a way to do that. There is nothing like cable cards available for satellite subscribers that allows third-party recording devices to function within their system. At the moment, support for cable cards is poor. The only consumer electronics I have seen that allow cable card installation are very high-end TVs, $800 MOXI HD DVRs (no subscription needed) and newer TiVos (subscription required).
You could watch them, but possibly still not record them. Some premium TV content, including HBO is copy protected now.
Many people don't need to worry about the extra space or extra cables needed for a DVD/BD player, and there is a reason to have a dedicated player. A decent DVD player can be had for $30 to $60. If it breaks, no big deal.. On the other hand, the DVD burner on a HDD DVD is expensive to replace. The same would most likely be true for a Blu-Ray HDD recorder.
Let’s talk cableco/satco DVR, the choice of the masses for time shifting TV: The cost of renting them is often reasonable. Last year, an inexpensive HDD DVD recorder cost $250 to $300, and that is a lower price than the more fully-featured models sold a few years ago. A SD cableco DVR would cost me $11/month. That's about 2 years to break even. Will the HDD DVD recorder last longer than that? Often they don't. If you want to discuss BD HDD recorders, if they existed here I don’t think one could be purchased for less than $1000 and have the features you want. Even at $20/month for a cableco HD DVR, it would take over 4 years to break even. The people who chose differently than you or I would did are not overwhelmingly stupid, nor were they necessarily duped. They have reasons for what they did. They want to time-shift conveniently, period, They are not interested in archiving, editing, or transferring VHS tapes to DVD, so it does not matter whether or not the device they have can do those things. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 10 00:35 | ||||||||
| The choice for everyone is not there though. The options are not being made available and TIVO dupes people by letting people think they can't do anything about it. Most people using TIVO that I have spoken to DO prefer more options in one machine, but are not even aware they could have a choice if they just petitioned for it. They just go with what's out there because they don't realize we could do better. TIVO lets them believe they don't need anything else. Their customers buy into it. And gee, it must be nice having all this extra space for unnecessary equipment, and the money in this economy to afford premium channels, and the luxury of TIVO.
Tru 2 way is coming along. Consumers have to be made aware of it and start to ask for it, then it can become widespread and prices will drop. Same with Blu-ray. FIOS is new. Cablecard-like devices CAN be developed for fiber-optic and satellite technologies if we start clamoring for it. Obviously with no competition, TIVO dominates. It is not serving all of the public. I've had great luck with Panasonic products. 20 years, same vcr, no repairs. My hdd dvd recorder is the best, easiest, most efficient machine I ever bought. If it was Blu-ray, and had tru two-way technology, I'd have what I want in a single machine and likely wouldn't be needing another machine for years to come. The initial investment is worth it. As it is now, my machine cannot record DIGITAL channels to my hard drive. I can't get over how many people are willing to accept having separate dvrs and players when they don't need to. They ought to be screaming for the technology to come to the U.S. The bugs can't be worked out here if we never get any access to it at all. We deserve to have all the options. | ||||||||
| lacywest posted 2009 Jun 10 05:25 | ||||||||
| My 2 cents ... I am converting all my PCs ... 6 of them ... with HDTV Tuner cards ... I do like recording my TV shows ... quite a few of them come on at same time and my Wife and I ... we have to juggle to record them all.
We had Directv turned off for a few months ... but we turned it back on ... they were bugging us to pay the bill with a collection agency. Directv raised the rates a few months ago ... so when we turned it back on ... we changed the package ... we cancelled HBO and Showtime. We get all the network broadcasts in this area ... thanks to a decent antenna mounted on my chimney. And with Divx Author 1.5 ... I have no problems converting DVR-MS to divx videos. | ||||||||
| lacywest posted 2009 Jun 10 05:31 | ||||||||
I've been using the Panasonic EH50 for awhile now ... I have 3 of them and use them to record the programing from Directv's HD HR10-250 ... I will miss the ability of it recording from analog transmissions but it will stay on the shelf next the Directv HR10-250 ... continuing to record the stuff to DVDs that we dont want to delete. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 10 18:33 | ||||||||
| What's extra money? I can remember when a VCR seemed like a luxury item. When I bought my own Panasonic DVD recorder four years ago, the $400-and-up HDD DVD recorders I saw seemed like an unnecessary and extravagant purchase to me. I bought a $200 non-HDD DVD recorder. Yes, I still have it and it still works, but I put money into it for repairs after 15 months, and I need to take it apart to clean the spindle every few months so it will continue recording. Most people would have junked it after it broke. The lifespan of HDD DVD recorders is impossible to predict on an individual basis, but they generally don't last as long as TVs or VCRs. I'm sure many have already discarded their HDD DVD recorders from 2005 too.
There's no way I could afford any third-party recorder with some form of cableCARD support. There's a reason why it is only available on high-end electronics. I'm not in favor of pushing for it on recorders. Plus, my provider charges for installation and only provides one free of charge. The others cost $2.00/month each. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Jun 10 19:25 | ||||||||
Actually, I think Verizon FIOS service began rolling out in '03 or '04. I hear very good reports on it. Unfortunately, it seems to have very limited service areas thus far. There seem to be many large, well-populated counties here where it is not available (yet) at all. I'm very reluctant to give any cable Co. my business the next time around, and would give DISH a try instead, if FIOS remains unavailable.
I don't see why that would be. I've been recording a great variety of digital (incl. Hi-Def) channels from TWC on my Pioneer DVDRs for years. This only records them in SD (Standard Def.), but for archiving purposes that will have to suffice for now. It's a lot better than nothing. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 10 21:49 | ||||||||
| I'm not suggesting that all hdd recorder/players REQUIRE cablecards or any other such devices in all machines. I'm saying we should be offered more options to choose from in the U.S. Everytime I enquire, they cite the American dependence on TIVO as the culprit. That and the cost. But if they had offered the same options for the U.S at the same time they did in Japan, prices would have dropped considerably by now. The word of space-saving and convenience has to be spread. No one can extoll the advantages of something no one has direct access to. They always start out placing new options in the high-end stuff. As consumers start testing them out, the bugs get worked out, changes are made, and we then start seeing it more and more in lower-end products that the average person can afford. Once the competition starts, prices go down. My Panasonic hdd recorder has no digital tuner so it can't record digital channels. I've never minded that because I had only analog. But the switch-over leaves my current machine useless as a recorder. I can now use it only as a player. I've only had it since 2005 and I paid $200 (gotta find the right deal). Not a huge price for a multi-action machine I've never cleaned or had to have repaired. It has years of life left in it but I can't use it to it's full advantage now. If cable tv still offers analog service, I suppose I can subscribe and still record analog, but how long will it be before they phase out analog? I'll need a box and where will I put it? I don't have room for both a dvr and a separate player. And even basic cable is expensive. Panasonic has recorders with digital tuners but none with a hard drive. The least they could do is offer a recorder/player with hard drive. | ||||||||
| joecass posted 2009 Jun 10 23:08 | ||||||||
| nina96
you can actually buy a Panasonic HDD/DVD recorder here in the US, except it's made for use overseas use, but will work with the common Video/Audio inputs. A friend of mine wanted to replace his defective Panasonic E80H, so he bought a DMR-EH67. Only problem is, it has a PAL tuner instead of NTSC, but attached to any source such as a cable box or satellite receiver with Composite Video outputs, will record Standard Def digital television just fine, as will your 2005 model Panasonic. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/511644-REG/Panasonic_DMR_EH ... order.html I have several HDD/DVD recorders with analog tuners, since I subscribe to digital cable, I receive both digital and analog cable signals straight from the wall outlet without the need for a cable box, in addition to the programming I actually pay for. The bonus here is that, Broadcast HDTV signals are also re-transmitted over the line, so I can record stations like CBS, NBC & FOX HD downconverted to 480i. You do have options such as buying an inexpensive DTV converter box, many of them will work with an indoor antenna depending on where you live. You can also buy something like a used LG LST-3510A HD tuner on EBay, which will tune either digital cable or over the air digital broadcast signals. I have one for about 3 years now, it works very well pulling in free QAM digital cable and OTA digital broadcasts. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 10 23:13 | ||||||||
| Japan uses a different OTA digital system than N. America. We can't benefit by being similar to them anymore as we did when both countries used NTSC analog.
If you are an antenna user, there are coupon-eleigible converter boxes that could extend the life of your current recorder. There is one model of converter box with timers that will work quite well. The Zinwell ZAT-970A or the newer ZAT-950A. If your machine included a G-link cable to change channels and control STBs, there are other digital converter boxes that will work with it. One is the Channel Master CM-7000. If it uses analog TVGOS, the DTVPal Plus can provide it, as well as tune the channels IF your local CBS station is transmitting the digital TVGOS and keeps correct time. These devices are small, book-sized mostly. If you can't find a place for one of them heaven help you. With a few exceptions, cable companies are more or less required to provide local primary sub-channels in analog until February 2012, but the major players are already beginning the process moving their extended basic analog customers to a similar digital tier. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jun 10 23:29 | ||||||||
| They don't have Cablecard-type devices in Japan or anywhere else, it would be strictly a USA-specific feature, and they've learned the hard way that USA-specific features do not sell. Nobody here is clamoring for Cablecard-compatible TVs, even though they're available. And the horrifically bungled ATSC-QAM transition has completely discouraged them from bothering further with cable features: they know the American cable monopolies do whatever the hell they want in blatant defiance of FCC regulations or consumer desires. The transition to the toothless, easily negated QAM standard has given mfrs final proof the USA recorder market is a complete waste of their time and that we are locked to renting proprietary hardware from the cable vendors. As far as the digital tuner for OTA, do what everyone else here is doing for our legacy DVD/HDD recorders: use your government coupon to buy a couple of ATSC converter boxes for $20 each and plug one or both into your Panasonic. These actually work WAY the hell better than the complete crap ATSC tuners built into 90% of the newer DVD recorders. In other words, if they DID market Panasonic DVD/HDD recorders with ATSC, everyone here would be bitching to the skies about how they don't work right. You're actually better off using your old analog version with an adapter (have you read the complaint threads all over the net regarding the new ATSC dvd recorders? None of their tuner/timers work! And the ATSC Panasonics just freeze up solid, even worse!).
What you say about trickle-down evolution and pricing of high-end electronics is usually true, but it didn't happen with DVD/HDD recorders. This pattern only occurs when sales increase year after year and economies of scale kick in. DVD/HDD recorders did not increase their sales, instead they stalled on USA launch in 2003 and sales regressed every year until the mfrs said "screw this" and dropped the USA in 2007. Europe, Asia and Australia still have a wide selection of DVD/HDD recorders because cable is not a factor at all, nearly everyone gets their signal OTA, and those countries/regions moved quickly to settle on a DTV standard and implemented it intelligently. We've been screwing around developing an incompatible, asinine DTV standard since the Clinton presidency, botched its launch, botched forcing it down mfrs throats prematurely, botched ensuring cable would play along, and wasted the entire opportunity. We voluntarily allow cable monopolies to choke us to death with no hardware access. This makes the very concept of an independent recorder untenable, never mind unsellable. We all agree with you that we'd buy an updated DVD/HDD recorder. But we're a drop in the bucket, we don't even register on mfr radar. They need a mass market regularly buying these at a price commensurate with their cost to make. That didn't happen in 2003. It got worse in 2005. Today its a sick joke. They cannot offer us something if 99.7% of consumers have no interest in buying it. The fact that you (or I) want one so desperately is not enough to change the status quo. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 11 00:11 | ||||||||
| If I don't have space for a cable box/dvr, I don't have space for a converter box. I didn't have room for both a vcr and a dvd recorder so I only use the dvd recorder and gave my 20 year old vcr to a family member who now uses the still working machine. I have room for a tv and the recorder/player. The cable company in my area says if I subscribe to basic, I don't need a box (basic is still expensive), but they say if I want digital cable, I need a box. I don't want the box.
I hear you. They're not gonna bother bringing to the U.S. what they believe won't sell. I just think that they could sell if we were not locked in to our current system, and I believe we are locked in because Americans have been duped into thinking there's no other way and that bugs can't be worked out. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 11 12:57 | ||||||||
| There is no room for even a H: 1.3” x W: 5.9” x D: 4.2” converter box like the DTVPal Plus, which will still work standing upright on one end like a book? It includes event timers too, by the way. I use an earlier version of the same product.
The only major difficulty is the internal clock. The entire DISH DTVPal product line lacks one. They all depend on the time sent in the DTV signal. If that is wrong, then scheduled events will not begin or end at the right time. Some TV stations are not maintaining accurate time in their signal, although that is a violation of FCC regulations, but hopefully that situation will improve. I can give you one other solution. It doesn't seem like you archive TV shows to DVD. If recording over-the-air TV is more important to you than watching DVDs, there's the non-subscription based DVR, costing $250 at the moment. It 's the DTVPal DVR. Here is a description at http://www.digitalstar.com/product/DTVPal-DVR.aspx It is the only OTA HD DVR option available in N.America other than TiVo. It won't work exacly the same as your Panasonic, but neither would a new HDD DVD recorder. It is only for use with an antenna. It has a program guide, VCR-like timers and records in HD, but there is no DVD drive. It's relatively new, and they are still working out some bugs via firmware updates, but the worst ones appear to be fixed. A new DTVPal DVR should have the latest firmware, but if at some point in the future a firmware update is needed, it can be downloaded to a computer, copied on a USB stick and installed. The DTVPal DVR is smaller than the HDD DVD recorder you already have, so a compact DVD player might fit next to it. If not, the TV you have will someday fail and you will need to replace it. At that point, get a TV with an integrated DVD player, or the ability to play whatever distribution format movies use at that point. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 11 21:41 | ||||||||
| Every idea is worth a try. I will find a solution eventually. I just don't want to give up on having all the options available to us. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Jun 12 11:11 | ||||||||
Since you seem to be a past or present customer of theirs, can you tell me if having DISH locks you in to using only their gear, other than their tuner box ? For example, a rep from Verizon told me that their FIOS gear does not support S-Video, which would be needed for best results with older standalone gear like my Pioneer DVDRs. (It looks like this will be moot, since FIOS is not available in the locations that will be of interest to me.) Tivo or other outside hardware may or may not interface with what you happen to have either. This stuff needs to be researched before you jump to some other service provider, even if you don't have the space constraints nina96 is having to deal with. But I would go pretty far out of my way to ditch TWC. The only good thing I have to say about them is that the (Motorola) boxes of theirs that I have support every type of connection, and have more than one set of the connections I need most. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 12 18:09 | ||||||||
Sorry, I can't tell you anything about their satellite service, satellite receivers or satellite DVRs. I have never had satellite service from them or anyone else for that matter. You'll have to look for information at their website. I only have the DTVPal converter boxes at present, which have composite-out and coax-out only. I researched the DTVPal DVR as a possible recording solution in the event that my parents decide to dump cable and become antenna-only viewers again. The DTVPal DVR has coax out, composite out, component out and HDMI out. There's no S-Video out, which I would miss as well, but then its not for me. | ||||||||
| joey_nikam posted 2009 Jun 19 21:10 | ||||||||
| You can't get a DVD recorder with HDD as TIVO sued the manufacturers for using their patented PVR technology and won over 200 million dollars, see link:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06042009/business/tivo_wins_echostar_ ... 172435.htm Anyway, back to the topic. You can still get a DVD recorder with a hard drive. But you have to buy a imported model, one of those region free dvd players/recorders. I did extensive research as we needed 12pcs for the US base in Annapolis, Maryland. We ended up buying 12 of the Panasonic DMR-EH67 from world-import.com. Here is the link of the model we bought: http://www.world-import.com/dvr-550h.htm When I bought them last month I had a hard time finding them as most manufacturers stoped production of this type of recorder. Good Luck :!: | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 20 00:56 | ||||||||
| Good info! Exactly what I've been saying. TIVO is monopolizing this area, lining their pockets while limiting our choices. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 20 10:27 | ||||||||
Did you actually read that article? I also used Google to find out more information. The suit began in 2003 or early 2004. As far as I could determine TiVo has only sued DISH Network and their subsidiary EchoStar because their sattelite DVRs infringed on patents held byTiVo. They did not sue Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, or any other company that made HDD DVD recorders for the US market. If any HDD DVD recorder manufacturers used TiVo's patents in their products, they must have paid for the right to do so. The difficulty is that TiVo out-competes them at the price point needed to make a reasonable profit on a third-party recording device with an HDD. If you truly want an HDD DVD recorder with an ATSC tuner, Walmart's website has Magnavox 160GB models back in stock, though for how long I cant say. http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10104532 Further complaining here does nothing to change the situation. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 20 19:03 | ||||||||
| Oh I think the squeaky wheel often gets the grease. Yeah I read the article and I'm fully aware of the details. Since it was indeed an old article I too obviously had to seek more info. I thought that was a given. TIVO was within their legal rights. Their actions still contribute to the "we NEED to rent a box" indoctrination. With no other options no one seeks out other plans. They get get comfortable where they are and accept status quo. Mostly applies to satellite which I would never use anyway, but I'm trying to avoid being forced to use an additional box altogether, STB, DVR, converter box etc. I do know that a blu-ray hdd recorder from panasonic is not a forbidden impossibility, which is why I will still voice my opinion and fight for more choices. TIVO is still ruining my chance for multiple options. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 21 10:39 | ||||||||
| So let me get this straight, instead of making use of what may be your final opportunity to obtain the very last HDD DVD recorder with an ATSC tuner that is likely to be made, you have decided to "fight" for a device that doesn't yet exist, may never exist, and would always be too expensive for you to purchase if it did exist?
Buying a HDD DVD recorder or the DISH DTVPal DVR (which is strictly for recording over-the-air TV and has nothing to do with DISH satellite service), would be more constructive than more complaints here. You would be supporting manufacturers who make products for this US market, and demonstrating that a demand for these product categories exists. Nothing speaks more persuasively than money. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 21 18:40 | ||||||||
| Is this not a free forum to express our opinions, put info out there? I've gotten many good suggestions, including the Walmart Magnavox, which is definitely a very good temporary fix. I appreciate that info very much. I don't care to support Walmart and its shoddy business practices so I'll search for it elsewhere, and have had bad luck with Magnavox, but I appreciate all the ideas out there. The machine I want does exist, just not in the U.S. at this time. I have no reason to believe it can't or won't be available in the future. And certainly it will not be unaffordable forever. If enough people were to makes their wishes known to Panasonic, they very well may be persuaded. Right now I think the economy is playing a part in this too. When you voice complaints, you get help from others who have similar issues and thought they were the only ones. They realize they're not alone, and it generates discussions that lead to very helpful solutions. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 21 19:18 | ||||||||
That machine is sold only at WalMart. It is actually made by Funai under Magnavox's label, and I have a vague memory that it was an item manufactured exclusively for WalMart. So congratulations, you have succeeded in finding a reason why each and every solution provided to you is unworkable. The only other HDD DVD recorders with ATSC tuners made in the last two years were from Philips, but they are currently being sold on eBay at two or three times their original price, and were likely bought at WalMart. Only a couple of other vendors ever carried them. Philips will exit the consumer electronics business at the end of the year, so those were the very last HDD DVD recorders that will come from them. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 21 20:30 | ||||||||
| Then Walmart it will have to be for now. I won't give up on my dreams and I have every right to fight for more options. I'd never buy such items on Ebay anyway though, too risky. I remember the Phillips, and I did seriously consider them, but then I heard from a Panasonic rep that they were edging towards bringing them to the U.S.(they estimated by 2009 at the time I called) , so I held out thinking surely they'll introduce them by the time the digital switchover took place. When that did not occur I contacted Panasonic again. This time they said they have no CURRENT plans for U.S. release, meaning the option is still open, but not in the immediate future. It was thoroughly disappointed, as Panasonic is the only brand of vcrs and dvd players/recorders that have remained trouble-free for me personally, but I am undeterred. Clearly the door has not closed on the idea, and in the meantime, you are correct, I along with others can indeed demonstrate a desire such products by purchasing items like the Magnavox (though I still shudder at giving business to Walmart). But I had not known about this particular recorder until it was mentioned here. Never came up in my searches. Proves my point about the squeaky wheel. Regular people heard my complaints and offered me multiple solutions. So I thank you very much and everyone else in this forum and others. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Jun 21 22:33 | ||||||||
| No, its probable that your ongoing complaints very nearly cost you that solution. Most of the members here have a low tolerance for whining, I almost didn't bother with you either.
Many members at this site regularly shop at WalMart online for video-related items. Strange that nobody else mentioned it. I only found it by chance. I was looking for information on another item, a Magnavox converter box that somebody had asked about. | ||||||||
| nina96 posted 2009 Jun 22 00:09 | ||||||||
| I only recently found this particular forum, just this month. There might very well be a mention of it in this forum somewhere, but unfortunately I have not seen it. Many others I've spoken to in others have had similar complaints but none of us had found the alternative we wished for. Most of us decided to hold out for Panasonic, and no one I saw had mentioned the Magnavox recorder. The Phillips I was aware of, but it was unattainable to me at least in my searches, and I wasn't keen on them (bad luck in past experiences) as it was so I thought there was nothing else. Panasonic had introduced Blu-ray models in Japan early on as expected, but recently Australia and other areas did too, so I thought great, U.S. is next. Not yet I guess. They all told me TIVO, and the high price tag was the hold-up. The Magnavox, though not a good brand for me in the past, is now worth a try since my resources are limited. Customers for the most part seem to like the ones they purchased. It appears to have a QAM tuner too which will appeal to cable subscribers. This looks like a good find from what I can see and I was being sincere when I thanked you for it. Frustration can turn to comments not meant to be insulting, but none the less are when read. Wishing in silence got me nowhere. Screaming got some notice and led to great suggestions if not for the machine I wanted, but knowing what to ask for. Btw, almost every good find I make is by accident, so I understand exactly what you mean by coming across the Magnavox while searching for something else. I never find what I want by looking for it directly. I happened upon this forum by accident too and I'm glad I did. The 'whining" paid off for me. |
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