Forum Archive Home -> DVB / HDTV -> Videoguard (NDS) alternatives here (Europe)
Videoguard (NDS) alternatives here (Europe) | ||
| SatStorm posted 2005 Aug 17 05:42 | ||
| This is "old" news for the satellite fans, but far from mainstream, so here it goes
We now have alternatives to use our Videoguard (NDS) legal subscription cards, on something else than Digibox. There are 4 alternatives: 1 - A Dragon Cam module with the latest predator firmware. With this CAM you can watch Sky Digital (UK/Ire) and Sky Italia on any DVB receiver with a C.I. module. Even a PVR one... 1a - A "Matrix Revolution" or "Matrix Reborn" Cam. Only for Sky Italia (rumours also say Sky Digital, but it didn't worked for me) 2 - Any DVB PCI / USB card compatible with progdvb and the ncemucam102 plug in. You also need a Phoenix Smartmouse at 3Mhz connected to a com port of your PC so to read the card. Tested by me and worked perfect. Also it is possible to make it work with a Nokia 9600/9500/9200 dvb receiver, using the well known progdvb plug in for this task. There is only one problem with this alternative: The subscription card doesn't update the keys, so remember to use your digibox one in a while to get the new keys! 3 - Dreambox 56xx and 7X00 DVB receivers, with unofficial firmware images (linux based). 4 - Triple Dragon DVB receiver with unofficial firmware images (linux based). Most things about this receiver are in German only (unfortunatelly)... Best solution from what I know (The card can update so no reason to use digibox and there are even sky plus skins to make triple dragon look like a digibox....) Remember: All those alternatives can be used ONLY with official legal subscription cards! I would love to know if Sky Mexico and other American NDS/Videoguard subscription services can work with those alternatives we, the Europeans, now have. Please, if you know, report! | ||
| LG75 posted 2005 Sep 02 23:16 | ||
| Hello SatStorm,
I live in Israel, where the satellite company also uses NDS videoguard encryption for their broadcast. The company name is YES and it uses Amos1/2. I want to use my PC as a PVR using the Dragon CAM with the new firmware (that support videoguard) and the company original smart card. One member of a hometheater forum in Israel has told me that he has tried it with no success. He believes it is because the module's firmware doesn't include the company's CRYPTO ID. I don't have much knowledge on this issue, so I’ll be glad if you can answer a few questions: 1. Do you think the guy is right in his assumption? 2. Is it possible to add the ID manually and how? Thanks | ||
| SatStorm posted 2005 Sep 06 17:53 | ||
| Dragon CAM doesn't support YES at present (from what I know at least....) | ||
| Bill Gates posted 2005 Oct 29 12:19 | ||
| Can anyone tell if any of these options works with the Scandinavina Viasat channels? A year or two ago Viasat switched from Viaccess encryption to NDS VideoGuard encryption.
I read on a Danish forum that Dragon Cam loaded with Predator firmware works with Viasat, but this requires the ident. number of the original receiver that came with the Viasat subscription to be programmed in the receiver-card menu. | ||
| SatStorm posted 2005 Oct 29 16:19 | ||
| You can use Viasat original NDS card, with an upgraded nokia 9800 DVB/S receiver. Also, only for viasat, an original PCMCI CAM Module is avalaible. This module can 't be used with other NDS cards | ||
| Bill Gates posted 2005 Oct 29 16:41 | ||
As far as I know it is not possible to buy any original NDS VideoGuard CAM for Viasat , they only sell receivers with built-in NDS (not as CAM). The only ones they will allow to buy CAM's for Viasat are cable TV providers. Where can you buy an original Viasat NDS card? In Denmark where they operate, everyone says it's impossible to buy an NDS VideoGuard CAM for Viasat. It's only possible to buy approved receivers with built in NDS VideoGuard. It was possible to buy CAM's or the old Viaccess encryption, but I don't beleive it's possible with the new NDS VideoGuard encryption. If I could buy an original CAM for Viasat VideoGuard, I would just do that, but I don't think it's possible anywhere. Please tell a place to buy them if it is possible. I would like to get a Viasat CAM so it can be used with a PCI DVB-S card for a HTPC. | ||
| SatStorm posted 2005 Oct 31 03:24 | ||
| I can't link you where to buy original and legal Videoguard cams. It's a grey area.
Here is a photo of the NDS Cam for Viasat 
It is tested with Viasat and works 100% (doesn't work with Sky Digital / Sky Italia) Technically, you can get the Viasat NDS card only, if you first have a subscription to the other Nordic subscription service, Canal Digital Nordic (Thor satellites, 1 west). From what I know, most users, BUY the official reciever with the card (so not to be forced to connect the receiver with the telephone line) and then they simply use their CAM insteed (official / dragon, even matrix reload/revolutions/reborn - if you find the proper firmware to upgrade) . In short terms, if you don't have already a subscription to Canal Digital, you won't be able to buy ONLY the viasat card, you have to buy the receiver too. Many "advance" users, use their Viasat card with a dreambox DVB receiver or a Triple Dragon one. The alternative, with a phoenix smart mouse and a PC DVB card compatible with progdvb (example: SkyStar 2), is by far cheaper and easiest | ||
| equant posted 2006 Oct 30 02:35 | ||
| Hi StaStorm,
I am new to this Satdecoders. Can you pls tell me that the solution you have discribe, work in australia f**t** NDS. The 7025 comes with the cable tuner so is it possible to get digital channels via Dreambox7025. thx for your help
| ||
| SatStorm posted 2006 Oct 30 02:51 | ||
| Well, I live in Europe, so I don't really know what happens to Australia regarding this subject. From what I know, dreambox is capable to emulate what is needed for NDS cards worldwide. Special firmwares also make Dragon (t-rex, diablo, etc) CAMs to handle NDS, but only for European subscription services.
The most universal solution, from what I know, is through SkyStar2, progDVB, NDS cam emulator plug in and a phoenix serial smartmouse at 3.37mhz. This combo never failed from what I know. | ||
| Abbadon posted 2006 Oct 30 06:53 | ||
| Just for your info, another alternative to the SkyStar 2 card is the Twinhan 1025, I used to own a SkyStar2 and they get terribly hot, you need a PCI fan to keep it cooled. | ||
| SatStorm posted 2006 Oct 30 09:06 | ||
| In the matter of fact, it is not SkyStar2, it is progDVB and the plug ins that makes the trick!
It just happens SkyStar2 to be a very popular and cheap card, that works excellent with progDVB :-) | ||
| yarm posted 2006 Nov 03 16:15 | ||
| I have tried ncemucam102 and i can only get a picture for a few seconds then it goes off, my phoenix is running at 3.57 mhz. do i need to change the resonator/crystal to 3.37 or was that a typing mistake? | ||
| yarm posted 2006 Nov 04 06:34 | ||
| i built my own phoenix, and it works now, the one i bought dosent work! | ||
| TimeHorse posted 2007 Oct 31 08:54 | ||
I quickly reviewed these options and none of them seem to indicate support for VideoGuard smart cards. However, I will take your word for this. That having been said, from what I understand -- and being a noob I may be wrong -- but for those of us in the States and Canada, apart from Bell ExpressVu I believe the others (StarChoice, DirecTV and DishNetwork) are all using Ku (Kurtz Upper) or Ka (Kurtz After) band Microwave satellite transmissions and the only RF/Microwave Capture Cards I've seen are from a company in Israel, which makes a PCI card with the model number 2030. I believe any other DVB-S receiver card or box is generally an adaptation of this. However, the maximum frequency for this card and other similar ones seems to be about 2.1GHz, where as Ku is around 10GHz and Ka can be around 20GHz (although it ranges from like 13GHz to 40GHz). So, unless I am wrong -- and I probably am -- none of these techniques will work for at least 3 of the North American players. However, only DirecTV uses VideoGuard in the North American Satellite business so this would only pertain to DirecTV anyway. My personal interest is to build a full-digital MythTV based on the DirecTV / NDS H20 receiver. This receiver is able to decode both MPEG2 and H.264 / MPEG4 codecs, which none of these techniques can seem to handle. In time, I think H.264 will replace MPEG2 so we will see similar boxes someday which support H.264, but not today. It is certainly possible to control this receiver from a MythTV box, but how you get the decrypted video from the STB to the MythTV box without loss is anyone's guess. Even 169time doesn't have a Firewire patch for the H20. | ||
| cuco posted 2008 Apr 13 14:12 | ||
| Hi, i'm new on this forum, my native language is not english, so sorry about my bad english.
About the frequencyes isue, i understand that 10-40Ghz is the Ku frequency but the receiver/pci card receive the FI frequency that is down-converted from the LNB, in other words, the LNB receive 11-12Ghz aprox and deliver 0.9-2.1 Ghz to receiver or digital receiver card. I have some experience in Latin DTV and Latin Sky systems, and we have never had a emulator, we all think ist is impossible because the asic incoporated in the cards. i reaaly wants to know if there is any way to test here, because since a couple of years ago, we do not have any way to test channels here, beforethe only way are modified cards. . . please explain how to test a dragon card with the apropiate firmware to check is this works here,i can post streamlogs too. keep in touch. Cuco | ||
| stars posted 2008 Apr 13 14:30 | ||
Hi I have a firmware for Magic Module that is told to work with Viasat cards. The only problem is that you must program the CAM with a CAS interface from duolabs. The firmware can be downloaded from my site www.the-lighthouse.se stars.... | ||
| SatStorm posted 2008 Apr 14 06:33 | ||
| @cuco: The infos you ask may not be legal in some countries and because this is an international forum, we can't talk straight for those issues.
Most of us in Europe, use Dreambox receivers to watch Videoguard cards outside the official recievers. There are also same Common Access Modules (CAM) that do the trick: Dragon CAM, T-Rex Cam and Diablo Cam are the most usual. Last year's "Giga" CAMs reported that do the trick, so some very expensive HD DVB receivers, like NanoXX, Ferguson, SAB, Kathrein and Technomate. I can't confirm personally this. A third alternative is with the combination of ProgDVB, the reported NDS plug in, a phoenix smart mouse (better serial, not USB) and a PCI DVB card for your PC. Here in Europe, the most popular PCI DVB card, is SkyStar 2. For more infos, you have to google. | ||
| [_chef_] posted 2008 Apr 15 15:27 | ||
Even more interesting with every post. 8) But the Nanoxx is a very expensive HD receiver?? Its a Vantage 6/7k clone. Mh, the Technomate is a Clarke-Tech clone, the Kathrein HD receivers are buggy crap, SAB (no info on them yet) and Fergusson is using some OEM stuff and coding the software in poland... I'll trace for "giga". ;) Most interesting to me is the 3rd alt. Thanks! | ||
| fk posted 2008 Apr 15 16:01 | ||
This is definately wrong. The only way to get an official Viasat NDS card is to buy a Viasat subscription. Viasat and Canal Digital are competitors and nearly hate each other, so a Canal Digital subscription surely wont allow you to buy a Viasat card. I know because I´ve had subscription from both providers. | ||
| SatStorm posted 2008 Apr 16 04:00 | ||
| @[_chef_]: DVB S2 receivers compared the DVB /S receivers are 3 - 6 time the price!
I mean, you can get a DVB /S receiver for 60 euros or less. The cheapest DVB S2 reciever I know is that "Dark Box" on, which is the official receiver of the Alabanian HD channels of the Digitalb package So, they are "very expensive", same way BluRay players are very expensive compared DVD players. SAB is a clone of ON LIEN (or the opposite, who really knows...) fk, 3 years ago, the only way to get an official NDS card, without their own receiver, was to show to Viasat that you are also subscripted to Canal Digital Nordic. Because of the E.E. laws, when 2 or more digital subscription services broadcast on a country, must somehow became compatible. There are 2 ways to succeed this: Or by broadcast on simulcrypt (there own code system and the competitor system) or to give only subscription cards, so to use them with C.A.M. on receivers with C.I. That's why an official NDS Common Access System device exists in your Scandinavian countries. Of course, only few gonna pay for 2 subscription services, so the demand for those modules is low. On the other hand, they won't tell you that this is possible, so to force you to buy / rent their equipment. The laws exists, so the alternatives. The problem is that the providers won't tell you about those alternatives and those laws. And if you know about them, and ask for your rights, it may take time to find your right. Meanwhile, you won't watch their TV Channels and that situation may take months. That's the reason the typical costumers bypass his rights to own a card only and choose to buy / rent the official equipment. Nobody waits for a card only. | ||
| stars posted 2008 Apr 16 06:25 | ||
Hi if this law exsits I have NEVER EVER heard that anybody have bought or got a NDS cam so they could watch Viasat in there Canal digital box. Most Visat subscribers were offerd a new reciver or firmware upgrade but I have never heard about NDS cams. The picture of the CAM, you got is from an english site " leffe " something. I dont know exactly how NDS works (and there arnt many) but I think there are differnt "dialects" of the encryption system so if one NDS system is hacked the others will still be safe. There for the tv providers wants to sell/rent a spefic reciver to there customer so it will function the right way. When the emu gbox (dreambox 7000s) with NDS support was released, the autours were freaten to there lives by some tuff guys (maybe NDS people) so they stopped there development for some time....This indicates that there are some big money behind this... And strangely the dreambox 7025 internal card reader have problems reading the NDS card (problem with the data transfer speed) so some is using a phoenix interface or an usb card reader instead... (maybe this have been solve by a frimware hack) regards stars..... | ||
| [_chef_] posted 2008 Apr 17 03:31 | ||
| @SatStorm,
kinda that is, thanks. The cheapest HD DVB-S2 receiver I have seen so far without subscription etc. is €119 at anixehd.tv ... h**p://shop.anixehd.tv/product_info.php?info=p586_Comag-HDTV-Sat-Receiver--HD-S-CI-100.html @stars, please be aware that a NDS CAM (Viasat) is nothing related to that encryption BSkyB is using...they are really different. ;) | ||
| pp46 posted 2008 Apr 29 06:05 | ||
| Hallo,
Where can I buy NDS Videoguard subscription card to watch in Bulgaria Fox News at Astra 2B-28.2E, 12070H/27500. Is it necessary to buy original receiver with card, or is possible to use another one with card reader. Some links for card and recommendations about suitable receiver will be usefull. Thanks in advance. | ||
| [_chef_] posted 2008 May 11 04:27 | ||
You first need a BIG dish in Bulgaria. then you have to buy a Skybox with the Subscription....... | ||
| SatStorm posted 2008 May 11 14:29 | ||
| @pp46: Better try to watch FOX news from Sky Italia on Hotbird, or D+ on Astra. For Hotbird 80cm dish is enough, for D+ you may need 1.80cm.
By difference, the cheapest alternative, is ADD on Nilesat 101 at 7.0°W, but I don't know if this satellite is possible to be received in Bulgaria. In North Greece, we need 1.50cm dishes, so in Bulgaria, on the South part of your country, it might be possible with a cheap "Mabo" 1.80 offset. The ADD package is less than 120 euro per year. | ||
| pp46 posted 2008 May 12 02:20 | ||
| Thank You chef and SatStorm. No problems with 1.2m dish at 12070, Astra2(28.2E) - abb.30% signal quality margin. I'll try Nielsat as well. | ||
| mihaimihai posted 2008 May 21 08:32 | ||
| [quote="SatStorm
Most of us in Europe, use Dreambox receivers to watch Videoguard cards outside the official recievers. There are also same Common Access Modules (CAM) that do the trick: Dragon CAM, T-Rex Cam and Diablo Cam are the most usual. [/quote] Hi SatStorm, I saw you are based in Greece and using Hellas satellite. I am using a DTH service (named DOLCE) provided here in Romania by Romtelecom which is owned by OTE. Of course, is using the Hellas satellite and Videoguard encryption and officially it cannot be received with other receivers than the ones sold by the provider. Can I use a Dreambox (I am very interested in using a PVR enabled receiver) with one of the CAMs you mentioned in your post? | ||
| pp46 posted 2008 May 21 10:46 | ||
| Thank You mihaimihai. | ||
| SatStorm posted 2008 May 21 12:57 | ||
| Mihaimihai, here in Greece we don't use Hellasat 2 that much, we use Hotbird.
And OTE is now owned by Deutche Telecom, so Romtelecom is a part of the DT group now... I don't know 100% about Dolce. Sky Digital (UK), Sky Italia and Viasat (Scandinavia) all work with Dreamboxes and T-Rex/Dragon or Diablo C.A.Ms. But if you ask me, Duolab's Q-box is your best shot on this | ||
| mihaimihai posted 2008 May 22 04:22 | ||
| [quote="SatStorm"
But if you ask me, Duolab's Q-box is your best shot on this[/quote] @SatStorm thanks for your answer! I would rather prefer to stay away from a computer+receiver, I want a device with all included, the tuner+HDD+CAM+software and I consider the Dreambox or other similar receivers as the solution. I need advice what to choose from the large offer of such devices (receivers and CAMs) and the biggest problem is that I don't have the required time to browse all the forums :(! Regards, Mihai | ||
| SatStorm posted 2008 May 22 04:56 | ||
| The only Dreambox affordable solution in your case then, is DM600.
Or, a DM800, that also receives HD channels. The problem is that the images for the dreamboxes need 1 year to became good enough even for the basic things. DM600 is less than a year in the market and DM800 just arrived in the market. Duolab's Q-Box is a modified DM500 with 2 Card readers (there are Diablo Cams), 2 USB ports (so you can add an external USB HDD and turn it to PVR), build in contoler to add a 2.5" HDD, and ethernet. You can add a second tuner and make it also DVB-T. And they have a dealer in Romania, so it is obvious that they gonna make it work with the Dolce NDS cards, if they don't work already with the Diablo CAMs. | ||
| mihaimihai posted 2008 May 22 05:25 | ||
So the DM600 should work with DOLCE card if I buy a Diablo CAM? The Q-box contains also the CAM? Can you point me to the manufacturer site of the Q-Box as on the Duolabs site there is nothing like this? I appreciate your help as it seems nobody else is willing to give the proper advice! | ||
| SatStorm posted 2008 May 22 17:46 | ||
| DM600 and DM800 have one card reader. Those receivers with the proper firmware (image) and the correct plug in (Evocamd for example), can work with NDS cards, including the Dolce ones (as it is reported in various forums. I just pass the info, you have to search further yourself for this). DM600 is a standard definition receiver, DM800 is a HD receiver. Both are new so the images for them are in beta stage. Keep in mind that. In both cases, you can add a 2.5 HD or connect an external USB HD and make them PVR
Duolabs Q-Box One is a new Dreambox-like receiver, with 2 embedded card readers. The correct firmware transform those 2 Card Readers to Diablo CAMs. Those are by default NDS compatible. QBox One is manufactured in Italy. It's going to have huge support, since Duolabs is behind it. The cost is about 250 euro. TQBox has a great future. It can became a PVR too, same way DM600 and 800 does. On all cases, you just get one of those receivers, flash them with the correct firmware and with the correct plug ins and you just put the NDS card to the card reader. A second alternative is to buy a Diablo or a Dragon CAM and use whatever DVB receiver you wish with one C.I. The third alternative is one SkyStar2 card, ProgDVB, a phoenix smartmouse and the correct NDS plugin. There are also some Dreambox 500 chinese clones out there. Those cost around 100 euros and you can use the Dreambox 500 images on them (except the later Gemini ones, 3.40 or later). By using those clones (inet300 for example) and the correct image and plug in, you can do your job. But, those DM500 clones can't be PVR. You can stream what the receiver gets to your PC and save it there. But that means that you have a PC and a LAN network. The reason I'm able to help you, has to do with the fact that I'm from Balkans too (I'm Greek), so I know about those things. West Europeans (with few exceptions from Germany) don't know and don't care to learn about those things. Since the majority of the posters in this forum are from USA, Australia and U.K it is natural that they can't help you in detail. And to tell you the true, this forum and me personally can't help you further on this subject, without touching grey or "nasty" areas. You have to google for further infos. There are many dedicated forums out there, capable to help you much more on this that this one here! | ||
| mihaimihai posted 2008 May 22 23:02 | ||
| Thank you again! You've been so kind and provide me with more data than my fellow romanians on some other forums! Now I have enough data to take next steps in solving my problem. THe QBOX sounds very attractive, I have to search to see what other experienced people said about its performances and reliability. One more question for you: if I have two tuners (connected the same antenna and LNB) I should have two cards inserted in two CAMs? | ||
| SatStorm posted 2008 May 23 03:56 | ||
| No. One card work for both tuners.
And there is also something called "Home Card Sharing". A total legal (in most countries) thing, which is the reason Dreambox and dreambox-like receivers became so popular the last years. | ||
| [_chef_] posted 2008 May 23 04:03 | ||
| Hehe, well said, SatStorm. :) | ||
| fk posted 2008 May 23 04:22 | ||
I can strongly recommend an Arion AF9300PVR with a Dragon/T-Rex CAM for your purpose. | ||
| Lumikki posted 2008 Jun 01 15:14 | ||
| I have situation that I need new satellite receiver, because my old Nokia mediamaster 9902S is allmost broken. I have allready Viasat nordic card in my nokia. I'm going to also get new canal digital nordic card, because I'm interested some HDTV stuff from canal. My problem is, is there receiver what can do HDTV, Viasat, Conax?
What are my choises? | ||
| SatStorm posted 2008 Jun 01 16:44 | ||
| Viasat is NDS.
Canal Digital is Conax So: You need a HD receiver that has 2 C.I. with a Dragon CAM for NDS and Conax Cam for Conax. OR: A HD receiver with 2 U.C.A.S. I don't see many alternatives: AB IPbox, Dreambox 8000.... And since you are from Finland, search for: On Lien LN 6060HD. IMO, it is cheaper to get the official HD receiver of Canal Digital and have 2 recievers, one for Canal Digital and one for Viasat. | ||
| [_chef_] posted 2008 Jun 03 04:38 | ||
You happy camper! Anyone experience with this one? http://www.kjaerulff1.com/catid.200/pid.999/173.aspx Only SD, but........ | ||
| Lumikki posted 2008 Jun 03 08:19 | ||
| I'm very new with this stuff, so did not understand everyting.
Not sure, if I could even find Viasat receiver from Finland. The Viasat receiver situation in Finland is very bad, because shops does not even seem to sell them anymore. These are Viasat approved HD-receivers. - PACE TDS850NV HDPVR - Samsung DSB-H670N Dreambox 8000 isn't availlable yet. I did find AB-Com IPBox 9000 HD from Finlands shops. IPBox 9000 has 2 x Common Interface (CI) and 2 x smartcard reader (conax?). IPBox 9000 has 2 x DVB-S2 tuner, can they be controled separated, so that one controll DiSEqC 1.2 motor and other DiSEqC 1.0 switch. Also this was interesting receiver: Fortec Star Passion HDTV. It has only 2 x CI and no smartcard readers, but people in the net liked it. With two CAM, it could also work fine. Okey what I don't understand is this CAM and smartcard reader relations. I assume, I can just put the canal digital card to smartcard reader, if smartcard reader is conax based, but what about the Viasat card. Is this correct CAM for Viasat? Dragon CAM/T.REX (Rev 4.1) + Loader Card Also founded other CAM's, any of these usefull in here Finland? - Diablo Cam Light ver. 2.3 - T-REX SUPERMODUL 4.6 Inxtc TV and XPlus - CONAX CI-MODULE VERSIO 5,0 | ||
| [_chef_] posted 2008 Jun 07 02:25 | ||
| Which smartcards/abos do you have?
Forget the DM8000!!!! It will not come beforew Xmas 2008. Grab the Vantage 8000, out within 3 weeks. | ||
| fk posted 2008 Jun 12 05:25 | ||
| Hi Lumikki
If you´re looking for an HD receiver I would suggest you take a look at the Homecast HS 8100 CIPVR. If your satisfied with an SD receiver, then I´ll strongly recommend my own Arion AF 9300PVR. Both are twin receivers and work perfectly with Viasat and a Dragon/T-Rex module and with Canal Digital with a Conax module. | ||
| markVm posted 2009 Sep 29 08:55 | ||
| Hi
Can any one help, I have a Foxsat HDR recorder after upgrading from topup TV, there are a few channels I am missing and can;t seem to get via the box, I've seen the "White" Sky freeview cards for £10 - £20 which offers some of the extra channels, but don't under stand what all the CAMs are about as I'm completeley new to satellite, Can anyone advise what Cam I need to work on my Humax box with the freetoair Sky cards ? Thanks |
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