Forum Archive Home -> Restoration -> VCR buying guide (S-VHS / D-VHS / Professional)
VCR buying guide (S-VHS / D-VHS / Professional) | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2008 Mar 05 20:17 | ||||||||||||
| These machines all have some degree of noise reduction, or otherwise play a tape cleanly.
These are PROSUMER or PROFESSIONAL video machines, not something found at Best Buy or Walmart. Timebase correctors (TBCs) almost always exist in these. Most popular and well respected machines are in bold. These are JVC's NTSC prosumer S-VHS decks. JVC's high-end decks have CALIBRATION (finds best part of tape to play) and picture mode filters (AUTO, NORM, SHARP, EDIT). The 7000-series has 2MB TBC RAM, 9000-series has 4MB and uses the Dynamic Drum system. JVC HR-S5000U (no TBC, older) JVC HR-S5800U (no TBC, older) JVC HR-S6800U (no TBC, older) JVC HR-S7500U JVC HR-S7600U JVC HR-S7800U JVC HR-S7900U JVC HR-S9500U JVC HR-S9600U JVC HR-S9800U a.k.a GoVideo SDV-650 clone JVC HR-S9900U JVC HR-S9911U JVC PAL decks, prosumer, same features as NTSC machines listed above.
JVC HR-S8965EK JVC Professional NTSC S-VHS decks, continuation of the 7000 prosumer series
JVC SR-V101US / SR-V101U JVC SR-W5U JVC SR-W7U JVC Professional PAL S-VHS decks, same as above NTSC decks
JVC's D-VHS decks, which has a lot of the same features as the prosumer S-VHS line, but also has an added ability to cure VHS flagging, much like the Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorder does on pass-through.
HM-DH40000U JVC HM-DH5U Mitsibishi D-VHS decks, which has all the TBC, DNR, Calibration, Picture Modes and 3D Y-C filters seen on the top recommended JVC S-VHS and D-VHS models
Panasonic's S-VHS professional editing decks, with full frame TBC (instead of line TBC). The Panasonic Picture Control slider on the 1970/1980 is a variable version of the JVC Picture Control selections (by default, it tends to already sharpen a little at the "normal" notch setting) Panasonic AG-7650 Panasonic AG-1960P (has no TBC) Panasonic AG-1970P Panasonic AG-1980P a.k.a. Panasonic NV-FS 200 (PAL version) Panasonic PAL models with TBC and DNR (in order from oldest to the last model built):
Panasonic NV-HS 950 Panasonic NV-HS 860 Panasonic NV-HS 930 Panasonic NV-HS 960 Panasonic NV-SV 121 ......... made this post, have asked Baldrick to sticky it. Please add your input below, and I'll do my best to add it to this first post. Mention details (filter it has, filters missing, clone of another deck, etc) -LS | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Mar 06 03:21 | ||||||||||||
| Only one missing is the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U DVHS, which has all the TBC, DNR, Calibration, Picture Modes and 3D Y-C filters seen on the top recommended JVC SVHS and DVHS models. Great unit for archiving VHS to DVD.
The JVC DVHS models are newer than most of their SVHS units, have the same TBC/DNR/Filters, and are often a better buy: but I recommend avoiding the ones with five digit model numbers, they have known overheating issues and noisy fans. The newest JVC DVHS units with three-digit model numbers have proven more reliable: the JVC DVHS model HM-DH30000U should be probably be avoided for sure and the HM-HD40000U may not be much better, look for the most recent model SR-VD400U instead. (In Europe/Asia, the very early HM-DR10000EK seems to have been better built than the 30000 and 40000 and may be a good choice for members in those regions.) | ||||||||||||
| Marvingj posted 2008 Mar 06 07:59 | ||||||||||||
| JVC HMDH5U D-VHS Theater is probably the Top of the line, with so many extra goodies. More than 3xxxxx or 4xxxxx... | ||||||||||||
| davideck posted 2008 Mar 06 20:20 | ||||||||||||
| Additional JVC VCRs with TBC/DNR (NTSC) are the HR-S7500U, HR-S7600U, and HR-S9500U.
I give honorable mention to the JVC HR-S5000U, HR-S5800U, and HR-S6800U. These do not have TBC/DNR, but the ones that I have used produce excellent pictures from tapes recorded on other VCRs. It might also be nice to identify the JVC VCRs which have the Dynamic Drum System. IIRC, all of the NTSC models listed do except the HR-S7800U and HR-S7900U. The Panasonic Picture Control slider on the 1970/1980 is a variable version of the JVC Picture Control selections (SOFT, AUTO, EDIT, SHARP). The edit switch on the Panasonic provides a default setting independent of the slider position. | ||||||||||||
| DeLoach posted 2008 Mar 06 22:01 | ||||||||||||
| And let's not forget ...
JVC HR-S9500U (slightly older Digi-Pure technology but gives excellent results) JVC SR-W5U/W7U (per gshelly61, ULTRA High End Prosumer deck with Digi-Pure) PAN AG-7650 (very expensive ($5k) broadcast machine in it's day but can be had for <$500 today. Playback only machine. Does not appear to be optimized for S-VHS.) JVC SR-V10U (Not sure if it meets your criteria) JVC HR-S9911U (Not as well built as the earlier machines, but has all the right electronics) | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2008 Mar 06 23:43 | ||||||||||||
| PAN AG-7650 - TBC?
JVC HR-S9500U - TBC? Picture modes? SR-V10U and HR-S9911U already listed. I've got a friend that uses the HM-DH40000U, and it works amazingly well. Not sure what issues others have had on it. I'd buy one if they were not so ridiculous expensive, even on so-called "clearance" (furniture stores, smaller electronics stores and regional chains). List updated. Keep going, this is getting good. | ||||||||||||
| DeLoach posted 2008 Mar 07 17:16 | ||||||||||||
PAN AG-7650: Full Frame TBC with full Proc Amp, Y/C Delay and System Phase controls, Separate DNR adjustments for Y & C signals. JVC HR-S9500U: Has Digital TBC / NR (front panel button) plus Digital R3 (Menu). This pretty much amounts to what JVC calls Digi-Pure although they didn't call it that on the 9500. The manual does not state the size of the memory buffer. Does anyone know what that is? It also has Dynamic Drum. Although it does not have a Jog Dial on the face, it does have one on the remote. I feel the 9500 should be on the "Most popular and well respected machines" list. | ||||||||||||
| vhelp posted 2008 Mar 07 20:14 | ||||||||||||
| Evening everyone.
Too bad this wasn't started for Laserdisc players :x I also thought I should make an honorable mention of my JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U. I purchased this model brand spanking new back in September 2001 (for the recording of the new hit tv series, Star Trek: Enterprise, though it lasted 4 seasons, it was a great series) --> It is Silver plated, Purchased at Circuit City, Cost $169 brand new.. 2001 --> TIPS: use Fuji Pro tapes for obtaining maximum quality of your ET recordings, etc. But since it does not include TBC/NR/DNR type features, it prob won't make the list. Never the less.. It has and still does serve me well to this day, though I mostly use it for its respectable feature for its ERA/day -- it's SuperVHS-ET recording ability. This is a great feature to use but should be used only on good grade tape to reap its fullest potential/benefits. The question becomes realized (and asked) how does one know which grade tape brand to purchase. The answers is, it all depends on ones years of trial n error. In my follow-up notes, (below) you will see what my experience has revealed, and you can use that as a guage in your next projects. -vhelp 4557 | ||||||||||||
| vhelp posted 2008 Mar 07 20:17 | ||||||||||||
| For maximum transfer-to-dvd or other video format, the following are my recommendation on
set up for Recording and Playback on the: JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U model. Recording Setup-- My recommendation (though based on my personal everyday experience) when setting up to record those tv/movie specials or marathons, follows this basic recepi: 1 - use Fuji Standard (good) or Pro (best) 6hr tape 2a - Menu\->Function Set\ 2b - video calibration: ON 2c - picture control: AUTO 2d - Video Stabilizer: OFF 3 - set vcr to EP recording mode 4 - set vcr to SVHS-ET mode: turn on Playback Setup-- My recommendation (again, based on my personal everyday experience) is to make the following setup for best analog capture results: 1 - use Fuji Standard (good) or Pro (best) 6hr tape 2a - Menu\->Function Set\ 2b - video calibration: ON 2c - picture control: EDIT 2d - Video Stabilizer: OFF 3 - set vcr to ET recording mode Comments/Notes/..-- (recording/playback) I found the above to give maximum results in video quality details. What I want in these two setup above is every decirnable detail out of the tape from the vcr. Thus, the purpose of these two setups is for NR routines by the video's next stage, which is editing. I feel that on some equipment, allowing it to control the NR (noise reduction) takes away from the user the ability to apply a (possibly) better NR routine if the nr feature was turned on instead. So, I leave this off. In my models case (there is no NR on/off button) this feature is in the {2c} setup, where you have the following options: AUTO; EDIT; SOFT; SHARP; You use the option setup for AUTO; so that the vcr can make maximum use of the tape though based on its condition etc. -- the feature of auto; is to sense for certain properties/attributes and make auto-adjustments accordingly. However, there may be cases where you don't want to set this to AUTO; and instead, to EDIT; which in this case will not auto-sense the tape and will record as-is (the content) onto the tape also in maximum use without concirn for tape properties/attributes, etc. So, when recording to tape, you must make certain that you use good quality grade tape based on many years experience and your best judgement in terms of reproduced quality. Now, depending on your tape condition/age/content/macrovision etc., etc., {2b} might perform better if turned OFF. Perceived noise is a user determinable phenomina and varies from person to person. Example, what I see (given the above) as more tape detail, someone else might see as chroma noise or other noise. From the Video Workstation of, -vhelp 4558 | ||||||||||||
| davideck posted 2008 Mar 07 20:57 | ||||||||||||
| The Panasonic AG-1970 is at the top of my most popular and well respected list. | ||||||||||||
| Mudjock posted 2008 Mar 13 08:18 | ||||||||||||
| I just stumbled across some remanufactured Marantz MV-880 vcrs at Accessories4Less (for $99), which is an authorized internet dealer for Marantz. I have read at least one review (on Audioreview.com) that claims that this has digipure functionality and the same "guts" including menu structure as the prosumer JVC units. Can anyone around here comment on the MV-880 and whether they deserve some mention here?
BTW: I own one of the JVC 40000u units and I agree that it does a great job in spite of the confusion about what exactly it has or doesn't have with regard to processing capability. I have been careful to only use it for transferring things over to DVD in order to mitigate the reliability concerns. | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2008 Apr 15 18:35 | ||||||||||||
| HMD-H5U does not have tbc/dnr digipure according to the manual on line, I ordered one from B&H and then suddenly saw it did not mention these aspects.
I have a sr10 and a 9911U am I like to see a lot of difference with a d-vhs with digipure playing back my vhs recordings for dvd transfer, even using a panny es10 for passthrough? Appreciate your comments | ||||||||||||
| SmokieStover posted 2008 Apr 15 21:13 | ||||||||||||
| Very good and usefull post and responses.
Any suggestions on were these older models can be reliably serviced and repaired, or perhaps this could be covered by another sticky? | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Apr 15 21:44 | ||||||||||||
The JVC and Mitsubishi DVHS machines use pretty much the same type of TBC, DNR and filters you have in your 9911. The DVHS units are five or six years newer and built to a somewhat higher spec, but on the whole will give results much like a 9911 or the older 9600. The only reason I and some others here push DVHS over a 9911 or older JVC SVHS is that they are easier to find in good condition at comparable price points. The people who bought DVHS machines really did not use them much, the format never took off and was bought mostly for bragging rights by well-heeled hobbyists. Whereas older SVHS machines were often well-used, since they were originally considered nothing more than "fancier" VHS decks by most of the folks who bought them. And in recent years, many of them have changed hands several times on the used market, being passed back and forth between techies like us who needed them for DVD transfers. | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2008 Apr 16 10:20 | ||||||||||||
| thank you, you may have saved me $600 as I need both pal and ntsc machines, I also have a pansonic s-vhs 930B pal machine with tbc/dnr on its way, and my vhs pal stuff seems to largely like panasonic playback. | ||||||||||||
| gsh posted 2008 Apr 20 19:14 | ||||||||||||
Been reading the manual for the HM-DH30000U and there's no mention of a TBC. It does however have a "video stabilizer" - is this the same/as good as a tbc?
Also if you want to add the JVC PAL D-VHS decks. All have TBC + DNR + picture mode filters. HM-DR10000EK - UK model. PAL + NTSC playback (on PAL TV) HM-DR10000EU - European model. PAL, MESECAM + NTSC playback (on PAL TV). TBC/DNR does not work on MESECAM playback. HM-DR10000MS - French model. PAL, SECAM, MESECAM, NTSC playback (on pal tv). TBC/DNR does not work on MESECAM/SECAM playback. | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2008 Apr 20 20:21 | ||||||||||||
| thanks and have you found any improvement on the jvc s-vhs decks with tbc/dnr? | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Apr 21 01:37 | ||||||||||||
No, the "stabilizer" is a separate function. There is a lot of confusion whether the JVC DVHS units actually do include the "TBC" circuit at all, or whether they use a less-complete subset of features limited to the stabilizer, tape calibration, R3 noise filters, and picture control. There are members who swear they get results equivalent to the older JVC SVHS units which DO specifically include a TBC linked to their R3 noise filtering. One of the bigger problems nicely solved by JVCs is obscure chroma and luminance noise contamination from tape wear or poor reception. Since the JVC DVHS units without TBC perform about as well as the older SVHS with TBC, could it be that the TBC is not the key feature in the JVC feature mix: perhaps their R3 DNR is more significant? (The JVC DVHS units do still have those amazing R3 noise filters.) I have only had a chance to take a quick look at an older model JVC HM-DH30000U and the newer SR-VD400U, both DVHS units seemed to do approx the same cleanup job on my "torture test" tape that my JVC SVHS 9911 did. I have checked the manuals for all the JVC DVHS models, and none mentions a TBC, they have only the stabilizer and the noise filters. The manuals for JVC SVHS units distinctly specify a TBC linked to the noise filters, and indeed a front panel button activating the function is labeled "TBC/DNR" on the SVHS models. EDIT: My information is limited to the JVC USA dvhs model range which began with the HM-DH300000U- Europe and Japan received one or two earlier JVC DVHS models such as HM-DR10000EK which DID include the TBC. The HM-DR10000EK seems built like a tank: for members in Europe or Asia who can find an affordable one, it could be an excellent choice. Member "gsh" has one, and has been providing more details as he experiments with it: look for his posts here. I would usually tend towards a JVC DVHS over a comparably-priced JVC SVHS, the DVHS is newer with a better-constructed transport and mechanics. If you absolutely must have the TBC *and* the DNR filters, apparently the only USA-market DVHS with both features was the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U, my personal favorite and a great unit. The only remaining options are the older JVC SVHS decks, which I have had a great many problems with, but I suppose if you get a good one at a reasonable price... | ||||||||||||
| gsh posted 2008 Apr 21 07:22 | ||||||||||||
My tests show about the same results from an 8700, a 7600 and the DR10000EK, however I haven't been using the DVHS deck long. | ||||||||||||
| gsh posted 2008 Apr 21 07:41 | ||||||||||||
Thanks for the info. I had planned to pick up a DH30000U as I didn't think my HM-DR10000EK had NTSC playback. My original tests when I got it showed me only PAL playback, and the manual has no mention of NTSC at all. However, after seeing manuals for the EU and MS versions I have just tried an NTSC tape again and it does PAL60 playback, fine for my needs. I suspect my previous incorrect assertion was down to forgetting to switch my BR-DV3000 to NTSC input - silly mistake! Now I'm running some proper tests on the HM-DR10000EK - I've read that the DVHS decks tend to get very hot, so I'm going to run it continuously all afternoon and see if it is affected - if not, this will likely take over duties as my main deck with the 7600 and my Pana NV-SV121 as secondary decks. Now I just need to pick up a SECAM JVC svhs deck (or Thompson clone) and I should be set for a while. | ||||||||||||
| adondeeres posted 2008 Apr 28 21:17 | ||||||||||||
I think JVC D-VHS VCRs might have a TBC feature. Here's a press release from 2004: http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=419&pageID=1. According to that press release, the HM-DH5 has TBC listed under its feature list, however, the instructions manual (http://books.jvcservice.com) does not specifically state whether it has the TBC feature. This probably wasn't much help, but I guess there is still a possibility that the HM-DH30000U does have a TBC feature even though there's no mention of it in the instructions manual. | ||||||||||||
| gshelley61 posted 2008 Apr 29 18:31 | ||||||||||||
| Hi, all - been awhile since I've posted. Been out of the loop with work, moving, etc.
Anyway, some have mentioned the SR-W5U/SR-W7U I still stand by these rather rare W-VHS units as having the finest NTSC VHS playback picture I've seen. The full frame TBC and noise reduction filtering in these units is exceptionally high quality. Plus, the TBC defeats copy protection - a nice bonus. If you can find one of these units in good working shape, go for it. As always, YMMV | ||||||||||||
| 2Bdecided posted 2008 May 09 10:47 | ||||||||||||
Cheers, David. | ||||||||||||
| mikel posted 2008 May 09 11:55 | ||||||||||||
| IMHO, the SONY SLV-R1000 deserves an honorable mention.
A most superb picture, and built like a tank. Often, it'll play tapes that have trouble in my JVC 9900U. | ||||||||||||
| gsh posted 2008 May 09 11:59 | ||||||||||||
Yes. http://books.jvcservice.com/booklist.asp?Model=HM-DR10000 Good luck finding one at a good price - in the last few weeks 4 have gone on ebay for prices between £275 - £365 The prices have gone up since Feb/March when you could get one for under £100. | ||||||||||||
| stevecog posted 2008 May 10 12:56 | ||||||||||||
| Hi,
I'm new to this but want to get it right. I want to transfer my VHS to DVD, but want better than a basic all-in-one DVD/VCR unit. In today's market, is it possible to get a S-VHS similar to the old JVC 9800/9600s? What do you recommend for $500 range. Also, what TBC? And what capture card (VISTA with 4MB Ram and Quad Core processor)? Thanks. Steve | ||||||||||||
| themaster1 posted 2008 May 10 13:25 | ||||||||||||
| One JVC model hasn't been talked about much, it's the mini dv/s-vhs combo
I found one on ebay The big advantage is it seems to be able to output in dv directly(something the d-vhs models can't do i think).Add to that its Tbc and u get a beast.Only bad side is there is not the digipure tech. included. Did someone ever try this kind of combo? | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 May 12 05:07 | ||||||||||||
If by "in today's market" you mean "new in stores", no: they're all gone now. The final units were the DVHS models HS-HD2000U from Mitsubishi and SR-VD400US from JVC. Both were still seen occasionally in stores last year for $350-400 but the last of them have now sold out. They turn up on eBay from private sellers used for around $200 or new in box for $350-500. There are one or two "pro"/"industrial" DVD/SVHS combo models from JVC still available new via pro suppliers and specialty electronics dealers, but they retail at approx $1500 which is triple their actual worth and utterly ridiculous considering the rotten quality control they are reported to have lately. You'd be better served by a DVHS or older used SVHS model (just be sure to get a return option on anything used). In a pinch, a used Panasonic AG1970 can often be had for under $100 and can improve playback of many tapes. The color noise cleanup and TBC is better on the MGA and JVC, but for bargain hunters the Panasonic can be a pretty decent "Plan B". | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2008 May 12 08:48 | ||||||||||||
| I have tried many many vcr's and the brand/model that was used to record the vhs in the ifrst place is a good place to start, for ntsc I am seeing the older toshibas are very good, my local thrift store has some new looking ones for $17 ! | ||||||||||||
| JoseD posted 2008 Jun 01 22:00 | ||||||||||||
| Add the Pana NV-FS200, the PAL version of the AG1980, I have tested it against an old mitsubish with HiFi (only VHS though) and the difference is night and day. I can also confirm more or less the same behaviour I've seen reported here from NTSC version. Picture chroma might be a little subsaturated for some, but the detail is just amazing. It's also probably a bit more noisy, but you can allways turn the picture control down a bit. | ||||||||||||
| PLC401 posted 2008 Jul 02 09:47 | ||||||||||||
| Picked up a (lightly used) JVC HRS9600EU (Continental Europe retailed model) a few months back; I can say I have absolutely no regrets with the purchase. I'm in the UK so had to stick an adapter on the mains plug to convert it over, no sweat.
After initially leaving the machine untouched for some time, I just recently decided to run a VHS through it that had been recorded in Long Play mode (not originally my recording - I don't like using LP on such tapes!); the picture I got out of the VCR alone honestly surpassed my expectations - looked very clear and clean - and it seemed with a generous dollop of software tweaking afterward the result really managed to squeeze an awful lot out of the source. Pity that couldn't be said for the sound, which in any case can't be improved in this same way or level (if there *is* some hard or software tech equivalent for audio signal improvement/optimization, tell me!) but as far as the video goes: I burned the final output to a DVD, and it looked very respectable on a CRT indeed; some scenes just looked crisp enough to make me even question whether the original video was an LP VHS - looked far closer to an immaculate high-grade SP recording (which this tape was certainly not). So yeah, I'm very content with this piece of kit and I do like the picture it gives :thumbs_up: | ||||||||||||
| Bix posted 2008 Jul 26 15:20 | ||||||||||||
| The original post should be edited to note that the JVC HR-S9800U is also available as the GoVideo SDV-650. It's exactly the same VCR except it has different branding (obviously) and the Go is black instead of silver like the JVC branded model is. | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2008 Jul 26 17:02 | ||||||||||||
Done. Any updates that need to be made to the original thread, please post a new reply, then PM me a link to the reply. | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2008 Jul 26 17:05 | ||||||||||||
Anybody want to second this suggestion/praise for the Sony unit? | ||||||||||||
| bebrewer1 posted 2008 Sep 09 18:46 | ||||||||||||
| I'm looking at a few units online, trying to keep the spend less than $300 if possible.
Does anyone have any feedback or recommendations they could share on these models? Panasonic DMR-EA38V DVD Recorder/VCR Combo Toshiba D-VR610 DVD Recorder/VCR Combo with Upconversion (DVR610) Toshiba D-VR660 DVD Recorder/VCR Combo with Built-in Tuner (DVR660) Thanks | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2008 Sep 09 18:56 | ||||||||||||
| Sorry to sound like a broken record-but if you are converting vhs to dvd , what were the tapes recorded on and what have you tried so far. | ||||||||||||
| bebrewer1 posted 2008 Sep 09 19:01 | ||||||||||||
| These are generic VHS tapes that I found at my Mom's, a couple were recorded from live TV, 1 looks to be a Super8 to VHS conversion that was professionally done and the other was recorded from one of those old VHS movie cameras from the early 90s.
Thanks for your help! | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2008 Sep 09 19:06 | ||||||||||||
| How many vhs tapes we talking about? and do they play ok on your tv from the vcr you have? | ||||||||||||
| bebrewer1 posted 2008 Sep 09 20:15 | ||||||||||||
| Four tapes with no more than 30 minutes of video on each one. They play perfectly on my home VHS player. | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2008 Sep 10 10:49 | ||||||||||||
| "They play perfectly on my home VHS player"
So, if you have no further use for a vcr? , get a Philips dvdr3576, not a panasonic they still create a plastic image, Toshiba or may be JVC. are other good choices. www.ecost.com might have them or off Ebay and away you go. Unless you really want a combo, and why, when you have a vcr thats works? Believe me I have been at this for 4 years and started with the presumption my vhs recordings needed improvement, I forgot I have always used the best vcr's/tapes/signal, thats why they are good recordings. Yes any VHS (?) can be improved but its the time needed and learning and I am doing my easy ones first then seeing whats left. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Sep 10 19:57 | ||||||||||||
This one is a "maybe". They are very VERY hard to find in good condition, the transports tended to break down more often than on lesser Sony models. Repair shops view them as "premium" decks and apparently try to gouge on fixing them, so many owners throw them up for sale "as-is" once they fail. If you can get one at a reasonable price that works properly they can make a good backup to a JVC or Panasonic with TBC, but I wouldn't buy one as my primary deck. Note there was a similar "industrial" model SVO-2000 and an exotic Japan-market version. All use the same chassis and finicky transport. | ||||||||||||
| vhelp posted 2008 Nov 03 20:15 | ||||||||||||
| ** Panasonic AG-6300 **
To anyone who may be interested or knowledged.. I just so happen to come across a Panasonic AG-6300 unit. It has VU meters and a slew of other interesting knobs and buttons and what-not. It is slated for the garbadge, but I did ask to keep it, that is, if its any good in comparison to the others listed on the first page here. Lordsmurf, orsetto, davideck, if any of you know about this unit, I'd be interested in all of your comments. Its just that when I saw the "AG" part, I couldn't help but stop and think about that topic that was started here, this one, that is.g Thanks, -vhelp 4926 | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2008 Nov 04 11:43 | ||||||||||||
| The Panasonic AG6300 is an older industrial/pro deck which is very heavy-duty and well built. Assuming it has decent head condition and the transport is OK, it can be a fun toy to play with. It has some strikes against it as a feeder deck for DVD encoding, however. It is quite old, with the older SP-only professional 58mm head gap spec, which means it adds a lot of unnecessary video noise to most tapes recorded originally on consumer VCRs with their typical 37mm (or even 19mm) SP heads. It has no SVHS compatibility and no provision for a TBC or DNR, either built-in or add-on card. No remote is available. If you can get it for near-nothing and have room in your house to store it, its a nice reminder of how quality electronics used to be built. But it isn't a practical deck to use.
NOTE ADDED: The one really useful feature of this deck is that it will play the older pre-hifi stereo tapes, which have two linear tracks, in true stereo. There are very few such tapes that were not re-released in hifi or re-released as DVDs, but there some rare ones out there and if you have them, this VCR will play them for you in stereo at a dirt-cheap price. It may present a noisier picture than a newer deck which will play the tapes only in mono, but the tradeoff could be worth it for rare music-oriented programs. | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2008 Dec 05 06:24 | ||||||||||||
This thread is about high-end equipment, and you're asking a question about which consumer combo deck is best? Not only is a combo deck consumer quality, it is the bottom-of-the-barrel of consumer quality. The answer is "neither" and all of them are more or less jnuk. You need a separate VCR and a separate capture device (be it DVD recorder or otherwise) to attain the high quality sought by people reading this section of the forum.
You're a perfect candidate to just use a service. For example, I would charge a pretty small amount for only four 30-minute tapes, assuming they are SP mode in good condition. It would be a lot cheaper than buying equipment, less time than learning what you need, and just hassle-free altogether to just pay somebody. Of course, this assumes you can find a good service. The best services are online (people like myself who specialize in careful quality VHS work), the crappiest ones are local (or served from chains like Walgreens, where bulk-processed speed is valued over your quality). Food for thought. 8) | ||||||||||||
| Bix posted 2009 Jan 14 20:14 | ||||||||||||
| Possibly stupid question: If the AG-1980P's TBC is full frame, why doesn't it kill tapes' copy protection (at least in my experience)??
Thanks! | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jan 15 17:42 | ||||||||||||
| Because the AG1980 was sold as both a semi-pro and high-end consumer machine: it straddled both markets. Even though its TBC is "full-frame", it is crippled regarding MacroVision to keep it in compliance with other VCRs sold through consumer sources. Also, MacroVision is very very tricky: I have seen it slip past several megabuck professional TBCs I've tried at home and in post-production suites I've worked in. Bypassing it isn't quite as simple as the "blank line 21" conventional wisdom would have us believe. I've got $30 disposable "video clarifiers" that do a better job on MV than $2000 I-Den rack-mount TBCs. | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 Feb 05 18:12 | ||||||||||||
From another post:
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| MitchJi posted 2009 Mar 30 15:39 | ||||||||||||
| Hi,
I have not personally used one but some of the JVC Dual Decks VHS-SVHS/DVD-R have TBC and Noise Reduction. I don't have a complete list of models but both the SR-MV50US and the SR-MV55US have these features and it looks like they are both currently available! (V50 as a restock for $619 and the V55 for under $600 from multiple sources): http://www.fullcompass.com/product/338463.html
The SR-MV55US has: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/tech_desc.jsp?model_id=MDL1016 ... ture_id=02
I can't find a reference to PAL Models. Does anyone know if there are PAL Versions of these decks? I have a close friend who needs to archive some very precious VHS tapes. Does anyone know where I can get of a PAL version of any of the JVC Decks (VHS/SHVS or DVHS/SVHS or DVD/SVHS) with Digipure and TBC)? Thanks! Best Wishes, Mitch | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2009 Mar 30 15:52 | ||||||||||||
| In my experience, getting a high end deck in the hope it will improve the quality of playback on tapes recorded on typical (For whatever year they were recorded) Consumer VCR's does not work.
Concentrating on the quality of the recording and playing it back on the best vcr for the job, (Chicken and egg problem) is the quest, and it isn;t easy. Also using an external TBC will often help the capturing device, dvd recorder or PC get the best out of the source. I do not think those combos were sold in PAL, by its very nature PAL is a better quality source than NTSC, and a good Panasonic VCR for PAL is better again in my experience than a JVC. | ||||||||||||
| MitchJi posted 2009 Mar 30 16:36 | ||||||||||||
Hi,
I don't know about typical tapes (our footage was shot on Prosumer Camcorders so the results might be different) and I haven't tried this with PAL but everyone who watched our footage played back on a JVC HR-S9911U was impressed with the quality. It was not a subtle difference. My wife saw a sample, not a direct comparison, but she is familiar with the material and her reaction was "can we buy one (a HR-S9911U)?".
Thanks, good idea.
I don't think so either but the model numbers can be very different and its pretty hard to get information on PAL equipment in the U.S. so I'm not absolutely sure. Since the NTCS Models are currently available I'd like to exhaust every possibility.
Once again results with PAL and our material might be different but that directly contradicts our NTSC results. A friend got better results (he was archiving several hundred hours of tapes and did a very careful comparison) with the 9911 than a Panasonic AG7650 (Original MSRP: $5650.00). He ended up only using the AG7650 for some tapes that the 9911 couldn't track correctly. This is what he said (via email):
Thanks! Mitch | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2009 Mar 30 16:59 | ||||||||||||
| The facts on jvc and Panny vcr's in the UK are that the last JVC with tbc/dnr was the hr-s8965:-
http://www.jvc.co.uk/files/instruction_manual/lpt0771-001a.pdf and for panny, the last were 960 and 121:- http://tda.panasonic-europe-service.com/docs/2z49d1405dz3z1ff91z6 ... 0085-a.pdf The pannys are better built, and come up on ebay.co.uk regularly, but it costs you about $80.00 to ship. I have large number of these machines, yes I need therapy, to do my large collection of PAL conversions. | ||||||||||||
| MitchJi posted 2009 Mar 30 17:27 | ||||||||||||
Hi,
Thanks :) ! Mitch | ||||||||||||
| vega12 posted 2009 Apr 14 14:42 | ||||||||||||
| Hi,
I have seen a second-hand Panasonic V8000 VCR (PAL). It is said to be a former top model (8-10 years) with build-in TBC. However, I cannot find any Panasonic with that name on Google. Does anybody know this model? Intended use: High quality conversion from Super VHS to DV. Cheers  | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2009 Apr 14 18:25 | ||||||||||||
| How much?
Send more details as provided by the seller, it is just an old Panasonic VCR, does it have tbc/dnr? Looks like the hs960 | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Apr 15 00:36 | ||||||||||||
The JVC 9911 is an absolute junk throwaway VCR mechanism with a fancy flip down door and excellent TBC/DNR circuit. If you get one that works well, you'll love it, but more than a few of us have had big trouble with it. Its important when shopping these types of used VCR that you don't blindly rush out and spend big sums on a model just because it gets some recommendations on forums: at the time they were first sold, no one had any illusions these were anything other than the $150 base model with a $300 TBC/DNR circuit board grafted on. Keep this in perspective, especially with the 9911 which had to be the flimsiest "high end" SVHS JVC ever sold (it was the last). If you want the JVC-style TBC/DNR, you're FAR better off looking for a recent DVHS model with those features, like the JVC SR-VD400 or the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000. There is a common misunderstanding regarding the merits of old $4000 studio vcrs for consumer use: they are actually not nearly as good as a consumer JVC or Panasonic AG1980. These machines can seem like a "steal" since they now sell for $50-100 on eBay, but they aren't worth it. The transports and video heads are optimized for "old school" SP recording, which was eliminated from all consumer recorders around 1988. 90% of consumer tapes will play back very poorly on something like an AG7650 because the VCRs larger heads are reading 60% noise from blank areas of the tape not recorded or played on consumer vcrs. Those old hulks are great toys, and its fun to get a $5000 vcr for $50, but it won't make a good source vcr for DVD transfers. | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 May 18 10:25 | ||||||||||||
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| samijubal posted 2009 May 21 17:38 | ||||||||||||
| I see a couple of posts about the HMD-H5U here. Has anyone actually used this? How does it work for standard VHS tapes? Would it be considerably better than a standard Mitsubishi 4-head HiFi VCR? I have a lot of VHS tapes and can get the JVC for $50 if it's a good machine. | ||||||||||||
| Shinri posted 2009 Jun 03 10:13 | ||||||||||||
| Like some others, I'm interested in getting the best possible playback to transfer some pretty rough PAL tapes, before they're completely dead. :shock:
Anyone have experience with the Philips VR 1500? S-VHS with TBC http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/v/vr1500_58/vr1500_58_pss_eng.pdf What about the Panny NV-HS900, any experience there. Ideally, I'd like one of the PAL W-VHS machines, but they're pretty thin on the ground. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jun 03 10:50 | ||||||||||||
| The JVC HM-DH5U is a variation of the HM-DH40000U. They are similar except for the HM-DH5U being a little less fancy-looking and having an improved (runs less hot) power supply. The playback image would be similar to what you would expect from one of the vintage JVC SVHS decks recommended by LordSmurf. Depending on your specific tapes and specific model of Mitsubishi VCR, you might see some noticeable improvements. Note however the JVC DVHS usa models do not include a TBC, they only have the digital noise reduction and color enhancement circuits. From what I've seen, these are the key circuits to the "JVC look", the TBC is not nearly as important and indeed its sometimes preferable not to have it. The old JVC SVHS decks do not let you separate the TBC function from the DNR: both are either on or off. So if you like the JVC DNR output, but have had problems from the TBC interfering on some tapes, the JVC DVHS units could be exactly what you want. As a bonus, they are much newer with more reliable transport mechanics. At $50, if you can still get it I think you'd be happy with it as a backup deck. You could always flip it for at least that amount on eBay if you decide you don't need it after all. | ||||||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2009 Jun 03 15:53 | ||||||||||||
| That Philips is a JVC clone, eg: 9500, same potential issues, flimsy tape transport.
I have found the Panasonics of more recent vintage better, but thats me. Not the 950, bit long in the tooth now. | ||||||||||||
| themaster1 posted 2009 Jun 03 16:32 | ||||||||||||
If i had to guess i'd say it's the benefit that provide pal60 hertz for ntsc tapes but this would need some more thorough examination | ||||||||||||
| Shinri posted 2009 Jun 07 14:35 | ||||||||||||
According to this JVC page, the HM-DH5U does include a TBC. http://support.jvc.com/consumer/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027314&am ... chive=true | ||||||||||||
| SatStorm posted 2009 Jun 09 18:17 | ||||||||||||
| A friend of mine gave me a JVC HR-S6611EU.
It says: Made in Germany, so it must be around 1996-1998 as a model It has a power problem, easily fixable. Does someone know about this VCR? I don't see it on the list. If it's a nice one, I'll fix it. If not, I'll pass. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jun 09 20:23 | ||||||||||||
This was the subject of some confusion awhile back and is covered in several threads here. The JVC spec page is apparently in error: no TBC function is mentioned in the user manuals, the service manuals, or any menus or displays on any of the common JVC DVHS machines (there are one or two rare European models said to include it). Only the analog SVHS and WVHS decks have the TBC. The DVHS units do have all the other DigiPure features such as R3 edge enhancement, noise reduction, stabilizer and calibration. When compared in tests to the SVHS models with TBC, the DVHS vcrs without TBC performed at about the same level: the TBC is not as significant as the DigiPure filtering. | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 Jun 09 22:07 | ||||||||||||
| My understanding is the D-VHS may have an always-on embedded TBC. I've never had access to one long enough, or time to tinker, to come to any test-based conclusions.
Not willing to buy one, don't need it for personal or business use. | ||||||||||||
| DeXeSs posted 2009 Jul 09 18:40 | ||||||||||||
| Hey this one is directed right to lordsmurf if you please.
Maybe I didn't do enough searching but could you please justify/explain your preference of the JVC HR-S9800 over the HR-S9900 or HR-S9911U? Hope that sentence doesn't make me sound ungrateful. I'd really appreciate if you could mention the distinctions between these machines and what makes the 9800 your favourite. Thanks! | ||||||||||||
| Knightmessenger posted 2009 Jul 30 12:24 | ||||||||||||
| Well, I had a really good consumer vcr purchased in about 2002. (Panasonic PV-9662.) Unfortunately the heads got dirty so it plays back with white scratches in the picture. I've used two different cleaning tapes and taken it into a shop but none of those have fixed the problem. I used this vcr for capturing video so having a clear picture is very important.
So I'm looking to buy a vcr on eBay. The only problem is how do I look for one that will have equal or better playback than what my current one did? I tested it against the other vcr's in my house and it came out much clearer. On a large rear projection tv, a professionally prerecorded vhs looked perfectly clear, that is none of the fuzzyness that is typical of a vcr was visible. Basically it's hard for me to imagine the picture looking any better than what it did with the PV-9662. It's not so much the money aspect as I'm just worried about buying a vcr and finding out that it plays back with more noise than my Panasonic. Also, for a vcr with all those advanced options, I would want one that doesn't require a remote control to use them since remotes can die. If anyone has any tips or tricks it would be much appreciated. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jul 30 13:13 | ||||||||||||
| By the time Panasonic got to the 9662 era, most of their consumer VCRs had really, REALLY poor playback quality compared to their earlier models. I cannot believe how much noise spews from consumer Panasonics after about the 1996 model year- just horrible. To be fair, all the other mfrs dropped to the same performace level at about the same time: unless you blew big bucks on the top-line JVCs with DNR or the semi-pro Panasonics, most were stinko. That doesn't rule out the possibility you were very lucky, and managed to get a fluke 9662 that performs quite nicely. If you find its performance much more appealing than your other VCRs, chances are you won't be satisfied by anything you try to replace it with. I'd recommend bringing it to a good service shop for a professional head cleaning: it probably just has a large oxide flake or bit of adhesive backing jammed into its heads. This requires careful swabbing with a solvent to remove completely- don't try it yourself on a VCR you consider irreplaceable.
Once you have your 9662 back in working order, it can be your basis for comparison for any other VCRs you supplement it with. As far as upgraded models, there's really only the JVC SVHS models recommended above, the JVC or Mitsubishi DVHS models, or the Panasonic AG1970 and AG1980. Of these, only the Panasonics are completely operational from the front panel: they don't need the remote for anything (except resetting the tape counter to zero). The AG1970 would probably perform most similarly to your 9662, but with ajustments for picture softening/sharpening, a little bit of noise reduction, and a mild TBC which could improve some tapes. The AG1980 has noticeably better color and almost a complete lack of image noise, but its noiseless output can tend to look a little fake with some material and its processors cannot be switched completely off. The JVC and Mitsubishi models fall somewhere between the Panasonic AG1970 and AG1980: significantly better noise and color cleaning than the 1970, but not quite as aggressive as the 1980 and a bit less prone to look fake. | ||||||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Aug 02 15:39 | ||||||||||||
This seems as good a place as any for my post. At various times in the past, I was leaning towards getting one of the better "Pro" or "Prosumer" models discussed in this thread, but I never quite followed through on it. This was due to a combination of factors: I could not justify the cost at the time (though maybe the prices are more reasonable now ?); a lot of the material I wanted to transfer was kind of marginal, in recording quality or the condition of the tapes, and I did not know if it would make that much of a difference re the quality of the end results. Today, I have finally gotten around to backup transfers of several VHS tapes that had some extra priority, and I found some time to deal with them. I happen to be using my Pan VS-4820, which is likely the best VHS VCR I have. Going over S-Video outs, through a Zorilla filter (my first chance to try one of these), into the Pio 640. The other VCRs I could have used, or could still use where I run into problems, include a rather worn Pan 4664, a Tosh M-781 (6 heads, has DNR), and that JVC 8000 I mentioned a while ago, which I may be getting rid of. I don't know if that offers much to choose between, or whether I could do much better if using a Pan AG-1980, a high-end Mitsu, or whatever. On one tape, the image kept disconcertingly shifting the aspect ratio. Could have something to do with an issue of switch #2 on the Zorilla, which chooses between 4:3 and 16:9. I've now left it on 4:3, which seems to minimize this behavior. Then again, I half-recall something about the Pioneer DVDRs not recording any 16:9 ? On another tape, I had a lot of rolling picture, which must be a tape problem my best tracking efforts on the 4820 cannot cope with, and going from image to black screen to image often, which I assume to be tape dropouts. (I'm wandering in and out of the room where this is recording, and these problems seem to be far less on the 2nd. hour of that tape.) As an alternative to the Zorilla, I could have used the TBC-1000, either of a couple Sima models, or a Facet Clarifier clone that I have somewhere in storage -- if and when I can ever find it again -- but something of that nature was definitely required in the chain, because of the MV. Tracking. From a number of these threads, I know that is one of the key issues. As often noted here, different VCRs are going to do a better or worse job of handling this with certain tapes -- irrespective of how good on the overall make / model scale the VCR happens to be. Which is why I mentioned the other VCRs I could have used. One just might track a given tape better, even if other demerits come into play. I doubt that you or LS are going to tell us that there is ONE vcr that is going to be able to handle whatever we might run into, and yield the best results. | ||||||||||||
| Bix posted 2009 Aug 15 13:12 | ||||||||||||
| Something I've been wondering about recently:
Does the "AUTO" picture control setting on the JVC VCRs (I have a 9800 in the form of the GoVideo SDV-650) ever choose "SOFT"? I've noticed that on a lot of tapes where "SOFT" would be the best setting, "AUTO" never seems to choose it. | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 Aug 15 15:15 | ||||||||||||
| AUTO is the same as "NORM" which more or less takes a mix of softening and sharpening. It's not SOFT. If you want SOFT, pick SOFT. :) | ||||||||||||
| Bix posted 2009 Aug 15 16:35 | ||||||||||||
| I figured AUTO was, well, automatic. :) | ||||||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Aug 15 17:00 | ||||||||||||
| It's been a couple weeks, so I'm gonna bump my post of 8/2, above.
I was hoping that Orsetto or LordSmurf might have some useful comments on my xfer questions / observations. There is a whole lot of transferring that I've long just kicked down the road for later, but want to get done before the tapes disintegrate; I'm still not that well-versed in the subject. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Aug 20 16:39 | ||||||||||||
| Sorry I haven't replied sooner, seeker47, but I wanted to wait until I could absorb the specifics in your post more clearly. I think I "get it" now. :)
The aspect ratio mess is probably a conflict between those tapes, the Zorilla, and/or your Pioneer 640 recorder. Pioneers have always had a bizarre sensitivity to imaginary aspect ratio changes, its rarely a problem but once in awhile it fouls things up. I'm not sure what triggers the Pio aspect ratio bug, but its usually confined to dubs from external sources like VHS that might have random signal irregularities that the recorder incorrectly perceives as an aspect ratio flag. You could try using your TBC-1000 instead, to rule out the Zorilla as a problem, and also try switching to the Toshiba 781 as playback VCR. See if turning its DNR on helps with this. The tapes that roll probably do not like the Panasonic 4820 for whatever reason. Going to another brand like your Toshiba may help, or going to another generation of Panasonic like your 4664. The 4820 was not one of Panasonics stellar efforts, it doesn't track all that well. You might try your JVC 8000 while you still have it handy, but if a tape rolls at all it will usually roll worse on a JVC. Worth a try, though. And again, using the TBC-1000 instead of the Zorilla could help. Of your VCRs the nicest ones are probably the Toshiba 781 and the Panasonic 4664, which you say is unfortunately on its last legs. The 4664 was among the last of the truly good Panasonic consumer models, with exceptional DynaMorphous Metal Heads, good tracking ability and good color noise reduction. Its only drawback is a somewhat touchy interaction between tracking settings and the color noise reduction circuit: if tracking is not set just right the CNR system can make the image look worse instead of better. The Toshiba 781 can be great or so-so depending on the specific unit: for each person who says it has the best video performance of any VCR they've tested, there's another who says its noisy as all hell and the DNR is weak. Only you can evaluate your sample, compared to your other VCRs. Your JVC "8000" could be good, could be lousy: depends if its in good alignment and has the TBC/DNR features. If its out of whack, or lacks the TBC/DNR, its nothing special. The Panasonic 4820 is just average, introduced long after the company stopped caring about its consumer VCR business. Its mechanically sound and has SVHS jacks, not much else goin on. Its debatable whether you'd see dramatic improvements in your problem tapes if you switched to a higher-end JVC, Panasonic or Mitsubishi. If the problem is with tracking oddities and rolling blackouts, a Panasonic AG1980 could offer significant improvement, the JVC or Mitsu probably not. Then again, you might not even need an AG1980, you may just need another VCR comparable to what you already have but with better tracking. Before sinking big money into a 1980, look around for a clean Sharp 4-head hifi VCR (any model), a Quasar VHQ-860 or 960, or its twin the Panasonic PV-4520 or 4521. Note Panasonic began recycling model numbers awhile back, so you have to visually check which Panasonic a person is selling to be sure you aren't getting one of the recent garbage models. The "old" PV-4520 and 4521 date from 1998 or 99, and have a swoopy front panel which curves noticeably down like a smiley face. (The recent (bad) PV-4520 and 4522 are tiny with squared off front panels and triangular control recesses on each side of the tape flap.) If one of these cheap but good $20-30 vcrs don't help you, then you might consider one of the high-end monsters. But they're costly, and you can't tell which one will best solve your specific problems until you try them all. Their primary value is in their TBC/DNR circuits, which can either "clean up the image" or make it look like a cartoon. These circuits are more critical when dubbing to a PC encoder card, your Pioneer 640 has very stable line inputs that don't require pre-processing in the VCR. Experimenting yourself with your own tapes is the only way to get the "right" answer for you. | ||||||||||||
| Bix posted 2009 Aug 20 17:01 | ||||||||||||
| Two AG-1980P questions from my observations:
- The TBC in my AG-1980P often makes the picture darker when switched on. Is this is a known issue or is it just something wrong in the unit that I have? - From my experience, the AG-1980P has cleaned up tapes that looked worse in the JVC 9800, but in cases where it wasn't a result of the different tracking or the type of noise that the DNR circuits remove. I can take screencaps if needed, but the best example is from a tape I had that was unwatchably bad. Several generation dub *at best* but it had footage I'd never seen elsewhere with a bizarre bit of interference/lines/whatever in the middle of the picture that I can't describe. The 9800 was no help but the AG-1980P cleared it up to the point of watchability. Any idea what happened and/or how? Just let me know if you need screenshots. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Aug 20 17:38 | ||||||||||||
| The TBC in many high-end VCRs does make the picture a bit darker, a few go lighter, this is not unusual unless it looks seriously off. My 1980s and 1970s go darker, my JVC goes lighter and my Mitsubishi varies depending on the tape. The reason a 1980 can sometimes do much better than a JVC or Mitsubishi is its different TBC/DNR circuit. I forget the exact technical description, but the 1980 is apparently the only VCR that processes the entire frame with its TBC, the JVC and Mitsubishi process fields or lines (again, I forget the precise details but its something like that.) The gist is the AG1980 has the most powerful TBC ever built into a VCR, so it can cure some problems that overwhelm the JVC or Mitsubishi systems. The Panasonic also tracks better, especially old slower LP and EP tapes. It is not perfect, however: the JVC and Mitsubishi DNR performs more cleanly with less artifacts and is superior if the tapes involved fall within normal tracking range and don't have severe multi-generation degradation issues. This is why those with extensive tape libraries need both a Panasonic 1980 and a JVC or Mitsubishi. :wink: | ||||||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Aug 22 13:46 | ||||||||||||
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, Orsetto -- I'm sure it will be quite helpful.
That batch of xfers was done as a favor for a relative. She will let me know whether or not they were acceptable, and for the couple that probably were not, I may wind up doing a gear mix 'n match on a second try, as you suggested. These were craft-oriented instructional videos, from a company that ceased to exist at least 15 years ago, and their stuff never made it to DVD versions. To me, this incidentally points up a certain absurdity about copyrights: you could easily spend hundreds trying to track down whoever may have inherited the rights to material like this, and still hit a complete dead end. Happens all the time. It's moot, though, because she bought the original tapes way back when, at significant cost, and is legally entitled to back them up for her own use, on some contemporary medium, before they become totally unplayable. Even the accursed DMCA does not prohibit that. /mini-rant
I had no idea . . . which is why I'm very glad you know this stuff so well, and that we are able to draw upon that knowledge. I always thought the Toshiba had some virtues -- including its transport, with the high-speed wind in both directions, without harming the tape -- though I never really knew if the 6 heads and DNR amounted to real advantages. (I briefly also had a reputedly high-end Toshiba that was 2 1/2 x as tall, deeper, and seemed to weigh like 50 lb.s, but I got rid of it without ever really having used it. Can't recall that model # now, but it came with a light pen as an optional extra interface, and there can't have been too many like that.) Both of the Pannys have jog-shuttles on their remotes, a feature I always found to be a great convenience, and was sorry to see disappear from the market. Never would have guessed that the 4664 was rated so highly. It proved to be a tremendous workhorse though, and after what you told me, I would be inclined to spring for new heads and an overhaul, but I suspect the parts are no longer available ?
The JVC manual does not mention those features. I will double-check to make sure there is no such switch anywhere on the deck. The 4820 was one of the last Pannys still to be made in Japan, I think, but I guess by then that was no longer such an indicator of quality. [Oh, wait, I forgot about one that is in another room: a 4-head Canon VR-HF720 . . . which I think was actually made by some other mfr. Is that one worth keeping ?]
That's pretty much what I suspected might be the case. It probably depends on what tapes we happen to be talking about. In the case of this last batch, the most important thing was salvaging as much of the informational content as possible; improving the PQ would have been much less of a consideration. A lot of the VHS stuff you go to transfer is probably never going to look all that much better anyway, even if you threw a top-notch Proc Amp into the mix. I do have at least a few rare movies and concert tapes that might justify pulling out all the stops. These would be ones that have a starting PQ, sound, and condition far superior to those old instructional tapes. But that remains to be seen.
Sounds like a very good plan of action. Thanks again. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Aug 22 14:32 | ||||||||||||
Oh, man- I totally forgot there used to be Canon vcrs! It was so long ago! Yes, the VR-HF720 is a very nice unit. I had one years ago when it was a current model. All the photo and audio giants tried to jump on the VHS hifi bandwagon in the mid-eighties, usually by having a video company rebrand common VCRs of the time. The Canon VR-HF720 was unusual for being the only vcr rebranded from the Panasonic industrial AG line. I don't remember what model number Panasonic used, but the Canon 720 was identical except for the name badge. Very well built, very good picture: one of the nicest "Panasonics" ever made, with slimline chassis, multiple motors to avoid belts and gears wearing out- damn thing is built better than the later AG1980! Only problem was it couldn't track non-Panasonic tapes very well, and I had a lot of Hitachi and JVC made tapes in those days (still do). The Canon would track the video beautifully but couldn't lock onto the hifi stereo tracks if its life depended on it, so I had to get rid of it. It could work very well for you, though: definitely pull it out of mothballs and give it a spin. I've picked up a lot of experience within one small corner of the VH universe, which I'm happy to share, as many others here have helped me. But 'm not remotely as technically expert on all things video as LordSmurf and others here on VH, who are immense resources. I just happen to "know about a lot of VCRs" because I seem to have bought every damn one that was ever sold :lol: (I was very very picky in the VHS days and tried another one every couple months, selling off or returning the "losers"). By default, I've learned a lot about the interactions between many types of tapes recorded on many different brand VCRs, how they will play on VCRs available today, and how they will or won't transfer well using the simpler DVD/HDD recorder method. Its useful info, and I try to share what I've learned in a basic way, but everyones tape collection is different so they have to test my info using their own tapes. Almost any question you throw at VH can be solved by sampling the experience reports of assorted members, throwing them in a blender, and asking LS to make sense of it all. :lol: | ||||||||||||
| Bix posted 2009 Aug 23 12:13 | ||||||||||||
| How was the DNR on those 6-Head Toshibas, anyway? I had without DNR that had the best picture quality for recording of the VCRs that I've owned. | ||||||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Aug 23 12:32 | ||||||||||||
Again, I had no idea that was the lineage of it. I think someone once told me that if you took off the cover and looked around inside, a lot of the parts were either Hitachi or Mitsubishi, and it was in fact made by one of those two. Either that was wrong, or (more likely) my memory on this was wrong, &/or these companies may have been very incestuous as to how they sourced their parts.
That part does not surprise: this was another real workhorse for me.
Then I think that one may be a keeper for awhile also. The main issue with this -- and a couple of the others -- could be that they have sat idle or nearly idle for 4 or 5 years at this point. That's not so good, is it ? There are still a few VCR repair places you can find in your larger cities, so at least a good cleaning of the heads and transport should be possible. But, if one needed parts (up to and including new heads), the chances they could be acquired would be slim ? A plurality of my VHS-HiFi tapes were probably recorded on that very deck, and a whole lot of my other VHS tapes were made on the older Panny, so I might not be looking at the problems that led you to give up on the Canon. I don't know if I would describe it as slimline though, since it is around twice the height of the Toshiba, and much heavier.
Then I'm sure you well recall the days when stores like Good Guys were selling JVC, Pan, and other VHS decks for $600., $900., or possibly even pricier than that. (I'm talking more about the prosumer type models.) My sampling of these VHS decks was far more modest. (I don't think I ever got more than one from any single store. Lots of different sources. And, in truth, I was always much more into Beta Hi-Fi, especially the B1s capable decks. I think I knew a whole lot more about those.) But it seems like I lucked out in the VHS ones I did get, absent much expertise in selecting them. The only real disappointments were the two or three I picked up on eBay, and there it was more the case of choosing the wrong make and model than getting a sample of same that was not in at least a decent condition. If in due course I can get much more caught up on that big backlog of transfers, this may all return to just academic interest. Still, you never know when some friend or relative is going to turn up with a tape, saying "PLEASE ! Help Me !!" As in the example I gave a few posts above, the commercial transfer services may not be willing or able to do this, or some special gear may be required. | ||||||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Aug 23 12:42 | ||||||||||||
I just don't have enough experience with any kind of DNR to give you a really good answer on that. The best I could say is that sometimes it helped, sometimes not. (But isn't any advantage lost, unless you play that tape back on the same deck -- the one that recorded it and has that particular DNR ?) My default choice was leaving the DNR ON. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Aug 24 03:28 | ||||||||||||
I may have mis-remembered my Canon model number. There were two, now that you mention it one was bigger than the other. The one I had was the slimline in a light-gray cabinet, based on the Panasonic AG series, about the exact size of your Pioneer 640 DVD deck. Perhaps instead of VR-HF720 mine was VR-HF840 or something. The bigger one you have might have been sourced from another supplier, then, as you were told by others. It was so long ago I can't remember the specific differences, but if your Canon has buttons for digital effects like still and strobe it was either based on a larger similar Panasonic AG, or supplied by Hitachi or JVC. My Minolta vcrs were made by Hitachi, so I'd be very surprised if Canon also used Hitachi as an OEM, and I'm pretty sure they didn't use JVC. So your 720 still stands a good chance of being Panasonic: open the cover to blow the cobwebs out of it, and check if any motors or transformers are marked Matsushita. Sitting for a few years doesn't usually damage a vhs VCR as long it isn't allowed to get filthy, so you might be OK. BetaMaxes fare a bit worse: when they sit too long, they tend to develop tape loading problems. I've had to dump a couple of Sonys because of this, its cheaper to buy another used BetaMax than to find good service. I had another scare earlier this summer when I plugged in my trusty SL-HF500 for the first time in a year, and its loading mechanism refused to accept any tapes. It took a good dozen tries before the tape wrap system wheezed asthmatically back to life. Now I turn it on and load a tape once a week to keep it limber. Yikes- I need to get my remaining Betas transferred ASAP. | ||||||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Aug 24 11:56 | ||||||||||||
This one is decidedly larger (and heavier) than the Pio 640, and the cabinet is all black, with a lot more metal than plastic. At the time I got it, I was aware of at least one model in their line below it, not sure about whatever model was above it.
And it was so long ago that the calendar only went up to '98 or '99. We had a brief power failure here a couple weeks back, and I had to re-discover that 1987 apparently matches the 2009 calendar, so I set it for that. Hardly any of the mfr.s then were forward-thinking enough to imagine owners might have some use for a calendar that went beyond 2000 ! This one has lots of front panel controls that make the remote unnecessary, but no digital effects. That stuff -- along with multiple PIP -- is present only on the JVC-8000.
I'm finding a couple issues with my Beta decks. One is an illuminated "EE" error warning, which is rather obscure: I never really understood exactly what that was, even after tracking it down in the manual. The other is that various playing tapes will auto-shutoff arbitrarily, at different points. It remains unclear to me how much of this may be due to the tape, and how much due to the deck, but quite possibly both are involved. Obviously, that is a big problem if you are trying to do a recording-transfer into a DVDR. It has forced me to abandon direct-to-DVD recording. At least with the HDD, I stand a chance of being able to stitch the whole thing back together. I do try at least one full wind - rewind with a standalone auto-winder first, to make sure the tape is not sticking to itself on the cassette reel. (The tapes were stored well, so it's not like they were sitting for years in a hot attic, or something. But their age becomes a factor.) It must be a transport issue, and I may need to get it corrected. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Aug 24 19:00 | ||||||||||||
| Now that you got my curiosity going I did some research, and actually there were at least three Canons, all of them rebranded Panasonic AG models, and all considered among the most reliable and recommended VHS vcrs by repair techs. Canons are especially liked by service techs for their durable linear power supplies, the Panasonic AG models of the period had these as well but apparently the Canons went thru more stringent QC than the Panasonics! Anyway your Canon VR-HF720 turns out to be a rebranded Panasonic AG-1950, possibly the most unkillable tank of a VCR Panasonic ever made and pre-SVHS (circa 1986/87) ancestor of the AG-1960, 1970 and finally 1980. Damn thing sold for about $1200 back in 1987 when that was major $$$, it should last you the rest of your life. Definitely wipe it off and try it out, I'm sure after sitting five years it will start right back up as if it were new. These monsters are worth fixing just out of respect for their construction quality, what kills their value on eBay is they aren't SVHS and they're so heavy shipping charges can easily hit $70 cross country. If you find a Panasonic AG1950 or its twin the Canon VR-HF720 locally, they often go for as little as $50. While image quality cannot match later units with TBC/DNR, they beat the pants off those later models in terms of reliability and consistency.
The "slimline" Canon I once owned turns out to have been the "little brother" model VR-HF710 (I couldn't track down the equivalent Panasonic AG version). There was also a VR-HF800 which was nearly as big as the VR-HF720, but not quite as solid mechanically or electronically, that was based on the AG1820. The Canons to look for are the 710 and 720, with the 710 being more compact and lacking the flying erase head insert/assemble features. | ||||||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Aug 24 22:09 | ||||||||||||
WOW ! -- Who Knew ? Total, accidental luck of the draw here, I'd say. In the mid-late '80s, I did not often have that kind of bread to drop on a purchase of this type. My recollection is that I bought it from a long-defunct HiFi shop that did not give much attention to video gear (more of an afterthought, for them), and that I paid something like 6 bills for it. I may even have an old receipt in my files somewhere. Could it have been some sort of a special deal they had access to, briefly ? Neither Canon nor the other re-badger you mentioned had that sustained or successful a presence in this field. It does power up and work, as it always did. May need a good cleaning inside and out -- I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.
Ah yes, the flying erase head. Brings back memories of being able to make smooth and precise edits, with no appreciable image jump. That was also a hallmark of the better SuperBeta decks. | ||||||||||||
| JoseD posted 2009 Sep 02 19:46 | ||||||||||||
| I've bought 3 FS200s (one was almost a gift from a german guy for a favor and is now sold) and I've found all 3 tracked tapes differently. (Some image noise/color differences too...).
Is there a sensible explanation for this other than heads being worn out, because they don't seem to be. Some tapes simply have better tracking on a given machine, an old AC/DC concert (original) I have was the most evident. One of the machines couldn't almost track it without doing manually, while another was just perfect but this machine was bad at tracking some other tapes without doing it manually. | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Sep 03 11:33 | ||||||||||||
| Being largely dependent on mechanical performance, even three brand new identical VCRs will track tapes slightly differently from each other. The FS200 was an expensive, "boring" semi-pro VCR primarily sold to university video labs, wedding and event videographers, and post production studios: very few of these were bought by "wealthy casual users who let them sit in mint condition until you decided you needed one fifteen years later". As such, the majority of FS200s have seen heavy, sometimes abusive usage over the years. Externally they may look good, and the heads are made of indestructible material, but the loading and transport mechanics have often been to hell and back before the machine came into your possession. Most worn-out FS200s remain fully functional for normal casual tape playback, but if you need them for precision DVD transfer work they should be brought in for servicing. The heavy-duty design is fairly easy to clean and adjust for any competent VCR repair person, the FS200 has been around forever so most decent repair shops know it well. Bring in the worst-tracking sample you own, and have it restored to specs. | ||||||||||||
| PaulePanter posted 2009 Nov 01 13:54 | ||||||||||||
Two questions. 1. Is this also the same model as the Blaupunkt RTV-950 as listed in [1]? And if yes, could you add a note to the list please, lordsmurf. 2. In [1] a Panasonic NV-FS 200 EG is listed. Are there any differences? I could not find it on the Web. Thanks a lot, PaulePanter [1] http://www.dangl.at/ausruest/ausrt10e.htm | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 Nov 01 15:29 | ||||||||||||
| 1. Blaupunkt RTV-950 is (as far as I know) the same as the NV-FS200 / AG-1980P
2. Are you asking about the "EG" letters? Your link is 404. Also, Blaupunkt RTV920 = NV-FS100, which I think is also the AG-1970P. Or maybe the AG-1960P. Where's orsetto? Need to add Panasonic AG-4700E, too. | ||||||||||||
| PaulePanter posted 2009 Nov 01 15:55 | ||||||||||||
Great. So I can get one in Europe.
Yes.
Sorry. Fixed. […] | ||||||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Nov 01 18:27 | ||||||||||||
Orsetto is in Brooklyn and doesn't know much about German OEM versions of Panasonic industrial VCRs. :lol: I don't have verification, but I believe LordSmurf is correct in assuming Blaupunkt RTV920 = NV-FS100=AG-1970P. I'm reasonable sure the NV-FS series jumped directly from 100 to 200, which would make the 100 = AG1970. The only way the NV-SF100 could be the AG1960 would be if there was an interim NV-SF150 taking up the 1970 slot. If PaulePanter is able to see the actual Blaupunkt or NV-SF vcrs, or photos of them, he can determine this for certain based on appearance. The AG1980 was an evolution of the previous AG1970, which was arguably the most popular semipro model Panasonic ever marketed. As such, the external appearance of the AG1970 and AG1980 are identical, and I would think any Blaupunkt or NV-SF derivative models would also look identical. Other than actual model number engraved on the unit, the only visible clue to identify a 1970 vs a 1980 would be to drop the front cover and look at the front panel just beneath the tape slot. The AG1970 has just PICTURE and HEADPHONE sliders in this location. The AG1980 adds several more items below these sliders: a widescreen/ normal switch, a color/b&w switch, a linear audio switch, and a reset button. The much older AG1960 looks nothing like a 1970 or 1980: the AG1960 is very slim, half the height of the later models, and it does not have a TBC. The first semipro model, the ancient AG1950, is enormous: twice the height of an AG1980, no drop-down panel, no TBC. | ||||||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 Nov 01 19:01 | ||||||||||||
| Still not sure what a Blaupunkt RTV936 is. (No TBC, from what I can see.)
Grumble, grumble. I have a photo of a AG-1960P and it looks a lot like the 1980, but missing one row of switches. Size of unit appears close to the same. And it looks a lot like the NV-FS90. I'd like to figure out what each of these models is: RTV910 RTV915 RTV920 RTV926 RTV936 RTV950 While we're playing the ID game, I want to know about these: GoVideo DVR4200 DV/S-VHS/Video combination GoVideo DVR4275 DV/S-VHS/Video combination GoVideo DVR4500 DV/S-VHS/Video combination GoVideo DVR5000 DV/S-VHS/Video combination And for more entertainment, here's a crapload of JVC S-VHS model numbers. :lol: Mix of crap and good units! HR-S3500 HR-S3600U HR-S3901U HR-S3902US HR-S3910U HR-S3912UC HR-S3912US HR-S400U HR-S4500 HR-S4700 HR-S4700E HR-S4700EG HR-S4700EH HR-S4700EK HR-S4700M HR-S4700MS HR-S4700N HR-S4700U HR-S470U HR-S4900U HR-S5000 HR-S5000E HR-S5000EA HR-S5000EG HR-S5000EH HR-S5000EK HR-S5000S HR-S5000U HR-S5100U HR-S5200U HR-S5400U HR-S5500 HR-S5500E HR-S5500EG HR-S5500EH HR-S5500U HR-S5800 HR-S5800E HR-S5800EG HR-S5800EH HR-S5800EK HR-S5800U HR-S5900 HR-S5900EG HR-S5900EK HR-S5900MS HR-S5900U HR-S5902US HR-S5912UC HR-S5912US HR-S5950EU HR-S5955EK HR-S5955MS HR-S5956EK HR-S5960E HR-S5960EX HR-S5961EX HR-S5962E HR-S5962EX HR-S5963E HR-S5963EX HR-S5965EF HR-S5965EK HR-S5965ER HR-S5966EK HR-S5967EK HR-S6600 HR-S6600MS HR-S6600U HR-S6611 HR-S6611EU HR-S6700EK HR-S6700MS HR-S6700U HR-S6711 HR-S6800 HR-S6800E HR-S6800EA HR-S6800EG HR-S6800EH HR-S6800EK HR-S6800MS HR-S6800U HR-S6825EU HR-S6850EU HR-S6850MS HR-S6851EU HR-S6852EU HR-S6855EK HR-S6900 HR-S6900EG HR-S6900EH HR-S6900MS HR-S6900U HR-S6950EU HR-S6955EK HR-S6955MS HR-S6965EK HR-S7000 HR-S7000EK HR-S7000U HR-S700U HR-S7100U HR-S7200 HR-S7500E HR-S7500EK HR-S7500MS HR-S7600 HR-S7600EU HR-S7600MS HR-S7611EU HR-S7700MS HR-S7711EU HR-S7722EK HR-S7850EU HR-S7850MS HR-S7851EU HR-S7851MS HR-S7950EU HR-S7955EK HR-S7955MS HR-S8000 HR-S8000MS HR-S8000U HR-S8500E HR-S8500EH HR-S8500MS HR-S8600 HR-S8600EU HR-S8700EK HR-S8700EU HR-S8700MS HR-S8850EK HR-S8850EU HR-S8850MS HR-S8900KR HR-S8955EE HR-S900U HR-S9200 HR-S9200EG HR-S9400 HR-S9400E HR-S9400MS HR-S9500 HR-S9500E HR-S9500EH HR-S9500MS HR-S9600E HR-S9600EK HR-S9600EU HR-S9600MS HR-S9700 HR-S9700EK HR-S9700EU HR-S9700MS EK = Europe/PAL EU = Europe? EH = ?? EG = ?? (Typo?) KR = ???!!! MS= ???!!! U/US = North America E = Australia Not a complete list either. Models I've seen or used or own are missing, like 2901, 4600, 8965, 7965, 3800 Comes from repair-related info. Also from JVC: SR-S360E SR-S388E SR-S388EA SR-S388EC SR-S388ECA SR-S388EK SR-S388EKA SR-VS20E DV/S-VHS/Video combination SR-VS20EK DV/S-VHS/Video combination SR-VS30EK | ||||||||||||
| PaulePanter posted 2009 Nov 02 02:37 | ||||||||||||
Sorry, I only have photos of the Blaupunkt RTV-950, where you already confirmed that it is an Panasonic NV-FS 200. Thanks for all your answers!!! |
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