Forum Archive Home -> Media -> Sticky labels can screwup the playback of your DVDR's
Sticky labels can screwup the playback of your DVDR's | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 19 13:32 | ||||||
| I have seen quite a few posts on the forum about problems with playback of DVDR's. The symptoms are skipping and juttery playback and breakup and blockiness of the picture, particularly towards the end of the discs.
I too was having these problems, I always labelled my CD's and saw no reason why I should not label my DVD's. I have found, however I only have these problems on the discs that I have labelled. To test this further I burned a DVDR and did not apply a lablel. The disc played with no problems at all. I then applied a label and played the disc again. The old problems were back, skipping and breakup of the video. I therefore no longer label my DVDR's. Why this should happen I dont know, I use proper pressit labels so this should not put the discs out of balance, the only thing I can think of is the slight additional weight. So for those of you who have had this problem and have been applying labels, try a few discs with no labels and see how you get on. I would be interested in any feedback, as to whether this has solved problems with playback you may have had. | ||||||
| Dcent posted 2003 Jan 20 06:19 | ||||||
| FINALLY !!!.... someone has the same problem has I !!!!
This is important!!!.. I'v burned more than 40 discs and label them all and could not understand why the movies failed in same point... this hapends with ALL media discs with several autoring programs; I realy tested EVERYTHING diferent movies, diferent players, diferent editing programs and discovered that the ONLY real problem is the labels !! DON'T LABEL YOUR MOVIES !!!! | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 20 06:37 | ||||||
| To be honest, I was surprised not to see this subject come up on the forums before. I have seen lots of people complaining about their DVD's skipping, but no mention of labels being the problem. Hopefully this will help some people out. | ||||||
| SLK001 posted 2003 Jan 20 08:34 | ||||||
| I label all of my DVD recordings and I have not had a skip or a pixelate yet (the longest DVD that I have recorded was 4,694,939,711 bytes long). Yes, labels CAN cause a problem IF they are not properly applied. However, if you apply them correctly, they shouldn't be a problem.
I use Neato's Metalic Foil labels that have been inkjet printed and PLACED with a stomper type unit. But then, maybe I'm just lucky. | ||||||
| whytless physh posted 2003 Jan 20 08:51 | ||||||
| Hum. I've labeled about 20 DVDs over the past year burned with various drives and software. I've never encountered a single problem with them. I don't have an inkjet printer (color or mono) and have steadfastly used my reliable HP-LJ4 for several years. I use generic paper labels (Avery I think) and a CD Stomper application device.
I wonder if using colored ink, or any ink for that matter, is the problem here? SLK001 stated that the use of Neato's Metalic Foil labels has also not given any trouble. Those particular labels are not ink permeable. I would suggest that over time the ink will bleed through paper labels and introduce a wide spectrum of color on the opposite side of a platter. This might have the effect of causing strange refraction on the read heads of a player. Might it be prudent to start a poll to collect some data on what printers, labels and colors are used on these troublesome discs? I would certainly like to know what is causing this aberration. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 20 08:59 | ||||||
| I use press it labels, and use the pressit applicator, so the labels are definately applied properly. And like I said, the effect of the label can be seen as soon as it is applied, not after any long period of time so as to allow the ink to seep through onto the disc. | ||||||
| Smells_Like_Feet posted 2003 Jan 20 09:01 | ||||||
| I am just getting into DVD burning and would like to be able to apply labels to my discs. A couple of questions regarding the problem observed by Craig and dcent:
1. Is this problem reproducable? It sound as though it is because Craig was able to verify that the label was the cause. 2. If it is reproducable how about trying the following and see if the problem can be eliminated. Try labeling the disc prior to burning (thereby the disc is burnt with the extra weight). If you try this please post your findings. Regards, Smells_Like_Feet :o | ||||||
| whytless physh posted 2003 Jan 20 09:14 | ||||||
But do you use a color printer? The problem could be immediate if enough ink has bled through the label or can be seen from the back. I was not intending to imply that the ink actually infuses with the platter substrate. Having never been inside a working DVD player, I can't say for sure how much laser light makes it through the media and back but I do know that a change in frequency will cause read errors. My point is that the use of colored ink might be causing these problems by changing the frequency of the light returned to the read head. It's just a working hypothesis that would need some hard data to prove or disprove. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 20 09:29 | ||||||
| Yes I do use a colour printer, but surely the top layer of the DVDR is opaque and the laser should not be able to penetrate it. If this is the case I don't see why it would matter what colours were on the labels. | ||||||
| Heywould3 posted 2003 Jan 20 15:08 | ||||||
| A good way to test whytless physh theory would be to lable a DVDr awith out puting anything one it.. IE dont print it first.. if it still skips etc then you know thats not the issue.. im interested in this also :) | ||||||
| hothandiman posted 2003 Jan 20 15:23 | ||||||
| I wonder if it is the APPLICATION of the label that is the problem. That is, does the preasure used when applying the label damage the DVD recording surface? I too have had problems with labels so I no longer use them. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 20 15:24 | ||||||
Good idea, don't know if I can bring myself to trash another DVDR though. Oh well in the name of science. Won't be able to do it for a while though got a major encode job on the go and I need to shut all major programs down before I burn to DVD or I get a SCSI/IDE command aborted error in nero. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 20 15:26 | ||||||
I dont think this is the case, I apply very little pressure when applying labels. Just smooth the labels on from the centre to the outside. | ||||||
| draganong posted 2003 Jan 20 15:32 | ||||||
| Could it be the WEIGHT of the ink ? Like a graphic at the bottom of the image screwing up the balancing of the disc ? See if you print a solid pattern all across the label surface creates the same problem.
Are the lables circular ? Is the hole perfectly centered in the label ? /draganong | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 20 15:39 | ||||||
| The weight of the ink would be negligable (plus most of the labels I print have full ink coverage), and yes the lables are circular and centred properly. | ||||||
| hothandiman posted 2003 Jan 20 15:47 | ||||||
| What about a test of the pressure theory? When I get home I will take an existing DVD I recorded with no label and I will apply pressure to it as if I am applying a label. Yes, it may toast a DVD, but then I will know the answer! | ||||||
| Dcent posted 2003 Jan 20 17:35 | ||||||
Exactly !!... I really do not know the brand of the labels but they have a bottom (side with glue) blue. I now use a HP Photosmart 7150. I always aplied them by hand, but with perfect simetry. My friends, I've burned a lot of movies... all them have problems with standalone players... now I have problems NO MORE !! The labels ARE a REAL problem... altough i think is a heating/dilatation problem... not with the ink ! I also wonder why this was not reported before... so many people burning discs... | ||||||
| chemist posted 2003 Jan 20 18:03 | ||||||
| I've reported on the label problem in the past and I've seen several threads address the issue. In all cases the results are mixed. Some people have problems and others don't. I have tried labels printed on a Canon i850 color printer using CD Stomper paper labels. All of them lead to bad DVD's. I see the usual problems; skipping etc, especially near the end of the recording. I applied the labels after burning the disk and they always gave me problems.
Since I stopped using labels all my disks have worked perfectly so there is no doubt in my mind that the labels were causing the problem. I have a feeling this may be media related. Some of the higher quality name brand disks may have an extra layer which allows for the application of a label without any problems. I've been using the cheap ACCU brand DVD-R media from Meritline. | ||||||
| Colindale posted 2003 Jan 20 18:59 | ||||||
| I label all my disc's, and have had no problems what so ever.
Probably depends on the make or mechanism of respective players, might be worth including label compatability in the player list. Avoid hot enviroments, like your car!. | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Jan 20 19:06 | ||||||
| I haven't had any problems labeling my dvds so far. I'm using datawrite dvd+r and afterburner full face labels.
I think it would be a good idea if everybody posts which dvds and which labels they use and then we mabye can figure out why it works fine for some people, but not for others! | ||||||
| qballcious posted 2003 Jan 20 19:32 | ||||||
| It's simple...If you apply the lable off center that is to say not PERFECTLY centered on the disc, it will cause the disc to wobble and the DVD player's laser will have a tough time staying "on-track". This gets worse the further you play a disc because the disc warpage is more severe teh closer you get to the edge of the disc.
Tape a few quarters to one blade on your ceilingfan, turn it on and watch it wobble. same idea. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 21 02:11 | ||||||
I know all about dynamic balancing, I am a mechanical engineer. Like I said, this is not the case, the labels are applied perfectly centred with a special applicator. | ||||||
| You_Are_Alive posted 2003 Jan 21 03:14 | ||||||
| Very interesting topic. And it got me thinking about something that I experienced only once. Never happenned again. Burned my own dvd, and put a colored (should not matter though) label on it with a black plastic applicator, which ensures perfect application everytime. Got it from Circuit City and its compatible with all Neato and Fellows labels stuff. Nice system to work with, recommended.
Okay, this dvd worked everytime I showed it off to ppl, its a full written Dvd by the way. But one time after running my dvd player for about 4 hrs straight, I stuck this one back in and about half way into it, it started to pause the picture for very short amount of times, after some more time this continued and it progressively grew worse until it finally just froze the picture. When I ejected the disk, it felt a bit warmer than the other dvd but not sure cause I could not measure it with an instrument, it was just from feeling it with my hands. So maybe it has something to do more with the internal HEAT that is created within the player. And since the label is made of matte paper that has added extra weight, it also retains more heat and does not dissipate as fast. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 21 03:45 | ||||||
Good theory, you_are_alive. But I have burned a disc with no label, plays fine. Applied a label, inserted it in the DVD player and searched directly to 90mins (for some reason the problems are more evident further on in the disc, although I have had instances where the picture glitches right from the start). The problems are evident immediately, not after a period of time to allow the disc to get hot. | ||||||
| chrisf posted 2003 Jan 21 03:55 | ||||||
| I too have the same problems with DVD-R - blockies, freezing pictures towards the end of the disc. I too had labelled my DVD-R and after removal of the label (cheap labels not very sticky) the disc is fine - I guess this confirms the problem.
Don't believe it is media related as I see this on both Pioneer original media and Imation (both suppossedly "better" brands). Have noticed that the problem starts to occur towards the end of the disc, but after it has occurred it will be evident towards the beginning if the disc is replayed. Not quantified exact details........ | ||||||
| pacmania_2001 posted 2003 Jan 21 05:33 | ||||||
| I too have had this problem using Neato labels, glossy or matte. I have never tried labeling a DVD-R though just (S)VCD's and in some cases the damage happens instantly whilst others it takes like a week or so.
I have always believed that the adhesive was the cause of the problem | ||||||
| qballcious posted 2003 Jan 22 18:21 | ||||||
| Since the problem gets worse the farther toward the end of the disc you get it seems that my therory may be true. Despite the disagreement of one "Mechanical Engineer".
If you use those transparent labels they are made of rubber-like plastic meaning that during application there is the possibility of the lable stretching. Then when it has a week to settle or gets warm in the DVD player the lable can contract back into it's original shape and throw the balance off. This whole light shining throught he DVD is less likely to be true because the laser reads the tracked data by reflecting off the mirror-like coating on the back of the disc, not through the lable at any time. But follow this up with your experiences with lables. Maybe we can shed some light on the subject. | ||||||
| mp3superfreak posted 2003 Jan 22 18:41 | ||||||
| I posted a question about Adhesive Labels on DVDR's a few months ago. Read more here:
Adhesive Labels on DVD-R's? Needless to say, I DO NOT use labels. I'm awaiting an affordable CD/DVD printer. | ||||||
| qballcious posted 2003 Jan 22 18:57 | ||||||
| Anyone ever use one of those T@2 CD burners from Yamaha? It "burns" graphics/text on remaining empty disc space. that's pretty cool. Wonder if that can/will be applied to DVD technology on new DVDburners? | ||||||
| dood posted 2003 Jan 23 10:07 | ||||||
| Well, I had recently posted saying that my labelled DVD-Rs worked fine. It seems that maybe time and heat have something to do with it, but they DO NOT play fine. One of my kids' movies started messing up (wouldn't even play) towards the end of the disc. I removed the label and it plays fine.
I'm off to re-burn about 25 family home movie DVDs.... | ||||||
| miketree posted 2003 Jan 23 10:11 | ||||||
Why not remove the labels? | ||||||
| hxc3634 posted 2003 Jan 23 11:54 | ||||||
| I labeled all my DVDs with Neato but only several DVDs have problems. Specially those DVDs are encoded at low bit rate (~2500). Other high bit rate ( over 3500 - 4000) didn't cause any problem. I believe this label problem come from the disk rotating speed and data-read problem of DVD player. | ||||||
| herbapou posted 2003 Jan 23 12:40 | ||||||
| The number one cause of this problem is a too sensitive player. Hell, some player are so sensitive they even have problems with commercial DVD`s.
Some labels glue also dont react very well to heat. That can cause minor problems with the spinning of the DVD. Again, too sensitive players will have this problem. Its also possible the coating on the top of the DVD is cheap. Some lasers may "see" the colors of the label right though the dvd and it confuses them. Thats because some companies put the reflective coating on the upper side of the disk. If you scratch the top side of those disk with a pen, you will see through them. I personnally dont have any problems with my disk/labels/player. My DVDR are no-name with all white top side coating. I am using a tool to put my labels on my disk. My labels are thick enough that I barely see the colors print on the label from the bottom. | ||||||
| dood posted 2003 Jan 23 13:19 | ||||||
I tried that on one....what a mess! Even soaked it in hot water for a half hour. Still never got all the glue off. At $1 a piece ($25 total), I'll just copy the discs to new blanks. No big deal, and this is archival stuff I don't want to take chances with. BTW, I ordered a hub label kit and 600 labels from surething.com for $25. | ||||||
| thxkid posted 2003 Jan 23 13:48 | ||||||
| I have used over 200 labels on DVD+R' without a prob, I do use the super thin Merritline glossy lables only, also Everyone that I have heard that has had problem has been on the -R burned disc, which in my opinion based on what I have read is not as realiable as the +R format, just look on this forum for proof, see massvive more problems with pioneer and Sony drives than ove the HP's and the labels that would not work all came from pioneer drives. | ||||||
| Super Warrior posted 2003 Jan 23 14:57 | ||||||
"this hapends with ALL media discs" If by all media discs you are includeing VCDs too,then you are wrong.I've many VCDs in my collection and i put white labels on all of them and they've always worked fine. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 23 15:10 | ||||||
| I have never had problems with labelling CDR media only DVD-R | ||||||
| ajpdias posted 2003 Jan 23 15:51 | ||||||
| Craig, you are right, i have many problems with labels in my authored DVD's, but no problem with CDR's!
Not only one of my DVD's have played fine after i have applied one label...but i have burned once again the same movies, on the same media, with the same tools, and i dont have a single problem with my movies! guess what... :roll: | ||||||
| lewijo posted 2003 Jan 24 15:36 | ||||||
| Here's some more fuel for the fire...
The Video Rental place I go to labels ALL of their original DVDs with a transparent "Property of ..." sticky label. Most of the time it's not evenly applied either. Hmmm... Maybe we're seeing a thick vs thin label problem here. | ||||||
| alhall posted 2003 Jan 24 16:17 | ||||||
| I have over 200 DVDRs with labels and never had a problem. I really believe it has more to do with the quality of the DVDR. :-? | ||||||
| letgoofmyears posted 2003 Jan 24 16:36 | ||||||
| I've been labeling all of my dvd-r movies since I started doing them. I get the images from cdcovers.cc, print them on my deskjet 940c, using cd stomper pro applicator and labels. I've never had a problem. However, I've loaned them to people who DID have trouble getting them to play correctly. Their complaint was what you described above. But, they work fine for me, so I'm going to keep doing it. | ||||||
| redcell34 posted 2003 Jan 25 12:00 | ||||||
| My 2 cents
I was having this same problem with certain media. I would check the dvd before I spent the time labeling and it worked perfect. Put a label on and halfway through pixels, stop playing you name it. Took some nail polish remover to take off label and wham. Played perfect. The ones that I had a problem with were Princo white face. I had some Memorex that had labels and still play perfect. So I think it is just a combination of media and the labels. I am just looking at getting a printer that prints directly on the media. | ||||||
| Sakuya posted 2003 Jan 26 19:20 | ||||||
| May I ask what kind of labels you guys are using? Is it those special CD labels or is it the normal square kinds of labels? | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Jan 27 01:40 | ||||||
| Special CD labels applied with an applicator, to make sure they are central. | ||||||
| joerusso posted 2003 Feb 01 00:03 | ||||||
| I had the same problem with using sticky labels on my DVDs. Always it would foul up near the end portion of the disk, roughly at 2/3 of the recording. I didn't have any problems with labeling the disks until I switched from Verbatim to Memorex disks. The Memorex disks played fine until I installed a sticky label & then it wouldn't play on the 5th menu, the disk having 6 menus. This occurred on four connective disks. By the way, the labels were installed with a centering tool and the labels appeared near perfect in the center of the disks.
I have a new JVC DVD player and I decided to try my 4 non functioning disks on my friend's new Philip's player. To my surprise the 4 labeled disks played fine on my friend's player. Then we tried them on another DVD player, a year & half old, and again they failed on the 5th menu. As a test we stripped off half of the label on one of my non functioning disks to create a unbalanced DVD disks. Then the unbalanced disk was installed in his Philips player, which played fine earlier, and the Philips player continued to play the unbalanced disk w/o any problems. Conclusions from these experiments... both DVD disk manufacturers (Memorex vs. Verbatim) & DVD players (JVC vs. Philips) are a factor on playing disks properly when installing sticky labels, and finally, certain DVD players will even play unbalanced disks perfectly with sticky labels. | ||||||
| coda304 posted 2003 Feb 01 01:12 | ||||||
| It seems fairly obvious that the problems with labels are directly related to the design of the standalone player.
How about software DVD players, are the people who have troubles with standalones having the same effect on their PC’s? | ||||||
| joerusso posted 2003 Feb 02 00:46 | ||||||
| It's been my experience if the Memorex DVD disks with sticky labels do not play properly on my JVC standalone player they do not play properly on my computer when using PowerDVD software.
My Pioneer DVD burner uses DVD-R disks. It would be very informative if users with DVD+R disks have experienced the same problem when they label their disks. | ||||||
| LanEvo7 posted 2003 Feb 02 18:28 | ||||||
| Maybe the problem is because your labeling the wrong DVDs? What I mean by that is some DVD-Rs, can be labeled and some can't. I haven't had experiences with DVD-rs, but I had some CD-R that wouldn't read correctly after I labeled them. Others were fine using the same labels. | ||||||
| Erica posted 2003 Feb 03 12:03 | ||||||
| Why not just use a thermal printer like I do?
It prints directly onto my DVDs and its great with no problems. Recieved mine the day after ordering online too! 90 bucks and worth every penny! check here: http://store.yahoo.com/digitally-unique/cw50.html | ||||||
| marco_the_boy posted 2003 Feb 03 14:04 | ||||||
| I used to label my PSX backups, but after a while playing the game, it used to skip and not be able to read the disk any longer. When I took the disk out, it was warm and slightly warped (because of the label).
Look at the disk 'sideways on' to see if it is perfectly flat. If not, the drive will have trouble reading it. In my experience, only disks with labels will warp when they get warm. | ||||||
| Rogue3 posted 2003 Feb 03 15:00 | ||||||
| I've labeled all of my dvd's and have yet to have a problem. I don't use inkjet however, I use laser printers. Maybe that makes a difference since there is no ink to bleed through.
I use Ritek unbranded media (I've also heard you shouldnt label branded media because they already have a 'label' on them). I've labeled about 20 dvd's personally and have labeled 60+ for friends without any complaints. I use Neato brand labels and label applicator (the 2-piece, older version). My standalone player is a pioneer dv-444. | ||||||
| thegig posted 2003 Feb 03 19:54 | ||||||
| Just to throw my two cents in. I too had a DVD that would freeze consistantly, I chalked it up to the player until just recently. I removed the label, and whala, Works like a charm. I was using Neato also, but no longer. I may just have to get the Casio cw50, or just use a sharpie. | ||||||
| SergeantD posted 2003 Feb 03 22:52 | ||||||
| You guys are missing the boat!! Are you making sure everything on the label is spelled correctly? If not then that is your problem. I accidently misspelled the name of a movie once and the damn DVD refused to play. I then caught my mistake and PRESTO, the problem was solved!!! | ||||||
| disturbed1 posted 2003 Feb 04 01:43 | ||||||
| I have a crap load of DVD-R's (60% Princo, & 40% Ritek), everyone is labeled with cheap 3 up labels from Meritline. Printed in black and white by an injet printer.
Every disc plays fine, on Apex players, PS2s, XBox, Philips etc..... After 4 hours of play any machine would overheat, even our DVD players that don't have vents, nor fans. Heat would cause slight condensation on the discs more like a fog, that hinders the laser's ability to read the disc. A disc can also become a magnet for dust once it starts to spin, if your DVD player, or area, is dusty, it can clutter the lens. Most manufactures recomend a cleaning after every 6 hours of use. I've only had a couple of friends that had problems, they all 3 had older Toshiba DVD players that wouldn't load the discs. I believe this label thing nothing more than a myth. Much like burning CDs at a slower speed was an excuse for burners with weak lasers. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Feb 04 03:40 | ||||||
| Well it is obviously not a myth as there are many people who suffer the same problems (just read this thread). It seems to me that some DVD player are more sensivive to the type of media they will play.
Forget about overheating condensation or any other time related problem. I can put a brand new burned DVD-R in my DVD player (which has been switched off overnight) with no label and it will play fine. Take the disc out a few seconds later apply a lablel and play again, now the DVD skips stops and generally plays like crap. It seems to me to be a combination of budget media (which the DVD player is just managing to read correctly without a label) and DVD players which are over-sensitive about the type of media they will read. Adding a label to the combination of cheap DVD-R's and an oversensitive player is enough to send this finely balanced pairing over the edge and render the disc unplayable in a sensitive player. Well this is my opinion anyway. | ||||||
| dcsos posted 2003 Feb 04 04:43 | ||||||
| CRAIG: EXCELLENT HEADS UP! this topic
now for this guy who says: I have over 200 DVDRs with labels and never had a problem. I really believe it has more to do with the quality of the DVDR. NOT TRUE DVD+R's also suffer the same. When using sticky labes, please confine your activity to CD MEDIA DVD-+R cannot be labelled. PERIOD The people who invented the MEDIA have cautioned us not to label our burns with sticky labels.....NOW DON"T DO IT!!! now the words from the PROFESSIONALS (the chief engineer at SONIC SOLUTIONS which makes Scenerist and Creator as well as REEL DVD and My DVD and DVDit ) From The DVD DEMYSTIFIED website Is it ok to put labels or magnetic strips on DVDs? Labels and adhesive strips are a bad idea since they can unbalance the disc and cause errors, or even damage a player, especially if they peel off while the disc is spinning. Pressure-sensitive adhesives break down over time, so it's possible for labels to come loose after a few years. Libraries and DVD rental outlets often want to label discs or attach magnetic strips for security, but it's best not to use them at all. If you must, use a ring-shaped "donut" label that goes around the center of the disc. As long as the circular label doesn't interfere with the player clamping onto the hub, it should be ok. If you have to use a non-circular sticker, place it as close to the center as possible to minimize unbalancing. Placing a second sticker straight across from the center will also help. Writing with a marker in the clear (not reflective) area at the hub is better than using a sticker, although there's not much room to write. Write only in the area inside a 44-mm diameter. Writing anywhere else on the disc is risky, since the ink could possibly eat away the protective coating and damage the data layer underneath. In most cases a better alternative is a security case that can only be opened with special equipment at the register or checkout counter. Barcodes, stickers, and security strips can be placed on the case without endangering discs (or players). This is especially good for double-sided discs, which have no space for stickers. Full-size round labels designed to go on recordable DVDs may work, but have been known to cause problems. A better (but more expensive) solution is to use an inkjet disc printer I like the guy who said you just need to spell it rightand it'll work!:) | ||||||
| SergeantD posted 2003 Feb 04 07:00 | ||||||
You are not so bad yourself :) | ||||||
| sterno posted 2003 Feb 04 16:12 | ||||||
Actually CD-R makers also tell you not to put sticky labels on the discs (read the warnings on the package sometime). It's just that the problems that result from labeling CDs aren't quite as common, at least not with current hardware. | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Feb 04 16:44 | ||||||
| Hmmm I have only labeld about 10 of my dvds so far, no problems yet though, but after reading this I get a little worried. I would really like to continue laeling my dvds, but I guess I will have to be careful and consider the risks.
My conclusion anyway is, that if you have a good player and don't use cheap media, dvds with label will work to 95%! | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Feb 04 17:21 | ||||||
| Let's make a poll a see what result it gives. It would be intresting to see how many people having problems with there labels! | ||||||
| cdcox posted 2003 Feb 04 17:55 | ||||||
| I have labled most of my dvd's and they play fine. Using Neato labels and the applicator. This does make me leary of labeling though. I have actually seen more problems with labels on cd-r's, especially with recorded music when played in a Ford Factory Radio with a disc player. The added width of the lable, according to Ford, Can jam the player. Since I work on these vehicles for a living, I can say that I do see this alot and a cd-r that I may burn and want to play in my car, will never get a label, However, Knock ON WOOD, I have not encountered any dvd problems on my player. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Feb 04 18:07 | ||||||
Good idea, poll added | ||||||
| herbapou posted 2003 Feb 05 12:13 | ||||||
| I am having playback problems I DID NOT have 1 month ago with label DVD`s.
I always make sure my burns are ok by testing the playback of the last chapter after they have been label. All testing was Ok but now, 1 month old DVD`s all have problems at the end of the disk or just wont play at all. Standalone player is JVC and the media was Princo 1x. I am strongly suspecting the problem is cause by the media in combinaiton of my sdandalone player. The discs still play fines in my DVD-ROM drive so has soom has I received my Ritek G03 order, i am transfering all my backups to those. | ||||||
| extreme8 posted 2003 Feb 06 20:05 | ||||||
| My experience, FWIW.
Name brand DVD-R, labeled with Neato device & Neato labels printing full coverage. Several played back perfectly on my RCA player. Tried playing back "Bourne Identity" and it started to hang and pixilate at 50:00 in, which is about half way through the movie. Put it in my Apex and it was fine (not tested, but I think the Apex would play a pizza bagel if I could fit it in there, it's played everything else.) The following day I tried in the RCA again, same problem, same place. I removed the label and tried the RCA a 3rd time and it plays with no problem. It seems some players can handle labeled discs, but others have trouble whith them regardless of media quality. Draw your own conclusions, but I'm not going to label anymore. | ||||||
| bhutchins posted 2003 Feb 06 20:31 | ||||||
| I have no problem with GQ disks and Memorex labels | ||||||
| herbapou posted 2003 Feb 06 22:19 | ||||||
| Cleaning the DVD-R solve the problems on some disk but not all.
It looks like my DVD player is very sensitive. I am bringing some of the problem DVD-R to some friends at work tomorrow. They will test them on a Panasonic RV-32 and a Sony standalone player. I will post results in a few days | ||||||
| Peka posted 2003 Feb 06 23:59 | ||||||
Sorry but that's impossible, nothing applied by hand will be perfectly symmetrical, I'm sure our resident Mech Eng would agree with that? | ||||||
| herbapou posted 2003 Feb 10 11:42 | ||||||
| All my label DVD-R that had problems in my JVC player worked well in the Panasonic RV-32 player and the 5 disc sony player. Those 2 players are advertised has DVD-R complatible while my JVC player is not.
My JVC player do read DVD-R but seems to be a lot more sensitive. | ||||||
| dbajta posted 2003 Feb 10 12:10 | ||||||
| I tried labels, dvd pauses toward the end. I don't label any longer. No problems | ||||||
| samuraijack posted 2003 Feb 10 12:25 | ||||||
| Hi All,
This is my first post, but I have been lurking for a few months now. Way back when I was making cd-roms for my car player I ran into the same problem. Disks would play without labels, put a label on and they were toast. I noticed two things about the labels/CD's that didnt work. 1. The edges on the outside sometimes got a little chewed up, only slightly, maybe a millimeter or two at most, but enough to notice. Might have been the transport mechanism, however. 2. Gloss labels SEEMED to play more often than flat finish. I havent had any problems with labels yet, but this topic has made me hesitate on it. Now for a stupid question....Has anyone tried labelling, THEN burning a DVD-R? Just my two cents....please dont flame, Im not wearing my asbestos shorts today. | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Feb 11 13:18 | ||||||
| I haven't had any problems with labels so far, but today when I tried one of my labeled dvds in a LG player, it start to freeze and had some playback problem in the last chapter. I took out the dvd and tried to clean it and to my suprise the dvd played fine afterwards. The odd thing is that I just burnt this disk a few days ago so there shouldn't been any dirt on the dvd. I hope this playback problem have nothing to do with the label, but it may have! | ||||||
| Supreme2k posted 2003 Feb 11 15:46 | ||||||
How well does the printer work? Does it only print single colors? or full color? | ||||||
| vandakeg posted 2003 Feb 11 16:23 | ||||||
| I am also very interested in that thermal printer. If someonen could upload a pic of a label created w/ a thermal printer that'd be great! I was almost ready to order an inkjet, but if i can get away w/ a thermal, i'll be very happy! | ||||||
| igalan posted 2003 Feb 17 05:04 | ||||||
| I had this problem. One DVD-R that I labeled would not play well on the LG-3200 E, at the middle of the movie it will start skipping. But the same disc plays fine on another standalone DVD (I gave it to a friend). I thought this was because I burned it with Nero (I use MyDVD for all other DVDs), but now I think that this may be because of the label!
Now I don't ever label DVD-R and no problem with DVDs created with Nero or any other program. BTW, the same labels work fine for CD-R (I know how to apply them properly). | ||||||
| Supreme2k posted 2003 Feb 20 23:21 | ||||||
| I just got the Casio CW-50. It's not the greatest, but I am very impressed!
Just a couple of things: -Limited print area -Monochrome (prints in 1 color) The silver ink actually looks the best Here's a sample of my own  | ||||||
| disturbed1 posted 2003 Feb 21 00:17 | ||||||
How many DVDs can you print with one ribbon. Some have reported only 10 - 15 DVDs per ribbon. With a 3 pack of ribbons going for $24 (minus shipping and handling) that's a little over $0.50 a DVD. I average $0.10 a DVD using labels (including labels, and ink). I'd think about getting one if a ribbon could print 30 or more DVDs. | ||||||
| Supreme2k posted 2003 Feb 21 01:10 | ||||||
| I've done over 40 with the black ribbon with at least the same coverage as the sample that I posted. | ||||||
| Erica posted 2003 Mar 19 23:52 | ||||||
| I love my casio.
Ive printed about 30 so far and its still going strong...still dark and everything. I bought the 3 pack but havent needed to change ribbon yet & Ive had it awhile now printing daily for my business. I am very satisfied. I print on top & bottom completely every time | ||||||
| Bob W posted 2003 Mar 19 23:56 | ||||||
| Over 200 labeled DVD's so far and zero problems on six different DVD drives. | ||||||
| dcsos posted 2003 Mar 20 00:11 | ||||||
| Another PAPER LABEL FREE story!!!!!
-THERMAL CASIO USER shows how a ONE COLOR LEGEND (all the printer is capable of) is pretty darn ok! LOOK!  | ||||||
| Gritz posted 2003 Mar 20 08:45 | ||||||
| To me Qballcious's point makes the most sense, which is that it might be more of a balance problem then a media problem (although bad media might cause the same problem). If the laser is trying to read a narrow track and an 'out of balance' cdrom causes the next track over to be read then the data (both video and audio) would be corrupted. An out of balance cd would be more critical at the outer edges where the problem seems to always occur. If it was media I think you would also see problems popping up all over the disc, not just at the outer edges. As I remember cdroms used to be "rated" for certain rpm speeds (and probably still are) which indicates to me that rpm is a factor in reliability. Incidently .... I am also an engineer (electro-mechanical) but I'm always open and learning things differently than I had though before. And .... removing the labels is no easy task. If you save the "Title Sets', it's easier to burn a new one with Nero than it is to remove the defective label. I have found that by reducing the bit rate on movies that had pixelation problems and bringing the size down to about 3.6GB seems to fix the freezing and pixelation, since the data is out of the problem area. I can see that more testing is needed in this area. | ||||||
| igalan posted 2003 Mar 20 09:20 | ||||||
| Of course that a label that is not well centered will produce problems. The problem is that conventional labels are designed for CD-ROM, but DVD requires a more perfect balance.
A standalone DVD player will read a DVD slower than your computer DVD-ROM (1x or 2x maybe?). 1x DVD spins up to 580 rpm, while 24x CD-ROM spins up to 5100 rpm (I just found this information on some web pages). Because tracks are much narrow on the DVD-ROM, even with lower spin speeds DVD rom are more sensible to subtle unbalanced DVDs. The result is that some players will not play labeled DVDs. I have one of those... | ||||||
| Gritz posted 2003 Mar 20 13:09 | ||||||
| Igalan, thanks for sharing that information about the speeds. I wish I had know about that sooner. That does indeed point more to "unbalance" as being a part of the problem of pixelation and lockup near the end of the movies. I guess the next step is to look into printing/burning directly to the DVD top, to see if that fixes the problem. I haven't the slightest idea how all this printing directly to the cdrom works ...... so, it's back to some research. :D | ||||||
| bearfx posted 2003 Mar 20 17:55 | ||||||
| I have use Neato 2up labels, and have never had a problem. On my data dvd's, I always make a .md5 file with the checksum for every file I am going to burn. I took a couple of my early ritek dvd's, that have been labeled for a while and verified the files. They all came back OK.
Ritek 4x dvd-r burned with a Sony DRU500A md5 verified by md5summer on a pioneer dvd-rom drive. Both dvd's were filled to within 100MB of their limit. | ||||||
| patsym1 posted 2003 Mar 20 19:06 | ||||||
| Correct me if I'm wrong but if you check your original DVD'S you will find that they are not labelled in the conventional sense but printed by a CD machine ie no paper involved whatsoever. One other thought every original DVD disc weighs exactly the same believe it or not, we weighed about 30 of them and found no difference. To my mind its definately a weight issue.
Regards Patsym1 | ||||||
| gminnick posted 2003 Mar 21 08:32 | ||||||
| I am just now getting into burning DVDs, and this is my first DVD-R to burn and I had no problems with the label. I used a Maxell DVD-R and Neato label. Burned with a Sony 500AX and played on both a new Sony NS715P and very old Panasonic A110. Played on Sony first all the way through then put in Panasonic and played all the way through. Only done this once, so don't know if it will eventually not play.
I have sent an email to Neato about this just to get their take. | ||||||
| cai posted 2003 Mar 26 09:32 | ||||||
| Does anyone have a method for removing the labels from CDs and DVDs? I am definitely having label problems playing my labelled DVDs.
Thank you. cai | ||||||
| janwpb posted 2003 Apr 01 23:45 | ||||||
Okay, I'm so new at this I haven't even figured out how to back up my archived-to-DVD 8-mm home movies. (dub using Panasonic DMR-HS2 standalone, copying -ripping?- with sony burner, veritas? software) I read the media case about not putting a label on my DVDs so I didn't, but I did use a permanent ink marker to ID the disks--outside the 44-mm diameter. My question is, should I assume that eventually those disks will need to be replaced because of ink bleeding? Also--why doesn't inkjet ink bleed? Jan | ||||||
| Bob W posted 2003 Apr 01 23:49 | ||||||
| The new Epson 960 printer will print directly to CDR and of course DVDR. I'm going to be placing my order for one this week. :) | ||||||
| Cyrl posted 2003 Apr 02 01:10 | ||||||
| I have a freind who works for Xerox in my old office's copy center print all my labels for me, I use the Neato mattle labels and they are printed on a professional color laser printer at 400x400 dpi.. I've never had any problems. | ||||||
| tinkerbellsmyhoe posted 2003 Apr 02 02:19 | ||||||
I have been using just a regular sharpie on every cd-r and dvd-r i have ever had, going hell bent all over the disc. maybe I'm just lucky but i have NEVER had a problem in ANY player. As far as the eating away. i know that on REALLY cheap media this can happen. i bought a stack of 6 million for like 20 cents once and they just fell apart. i still dont know if it was because of the ink or not. anyway, as far as it has gone on cd-r's (3 or 4 years now) and dvd-r's (about 6 months), i haven't had a problem. i hope it stays that way. anyone else in the same boat? almost forgot-- i would really like to get a printer that will print directly to the disc but funding is more important in other areas. | ||||||
| dcsos posted 2003 Apr 02 08:23 | ||||||
Once again, I'm gonna reccomend the ONE-COLOR Printer from CASIO for $89.00 called the CW-50.. It thermally prints on the DVD or CD permanently.. You get 40 lables for $6.00ribbon- or 20 with one above one below the hole (It only prints a title bar, not the whole surface, and you gotta rotate the CD to print on manually) and It has 6 colors to choose from
 | ||||||
| IceFog posted 2003 Apr 02 08:56 | ||||||
| solve your labeling problems!: USE A SHARPIE | ||||||
| cephraim posted 2003 Apr 02 10:09 | ||||||
| I tried a number of different labels that all caused problems.
I finally tried Compulabel's Matte Clear "no-wobble" labels and they work like a charm when printed with my inkjet printer and applied with a CD Stomper... I highly recommend these labels... | ||||||
| bpjenn posted 2003 Apr 02 12:04 | ||||||
| Don't just use any type marker.
A little tidbit of info coming out of Dr Bob's Digital Imaging Course. If you plan on keeping stored information on a CD for an extended period of time (1 plus yrs) don't mark on it with a "Sharpie" pin or any pen that is alcohol base. The Sharpie ink will bleed through the CD and won't allow stored information to be called up. There are special non-toxic, non-alcohol based pins available for labeling CDs. One is the "Maxwell Disc Writer" found at most office supply stores. Downside is the cost of $3-$4. | ||||||
| arcorob posted 2003 Apr 02 13:21 | ||||||
| Not to be a spoil sport, but the whole premise of this Thread was based on faulty logic. It assumed that a user or users who had labels on their disks and had errors could attribute those errors to labeled DVD's because they tried unlabeled and they worked.
I have recently had a rash of those blocki errors and stops, ALL on unlabeled disks, ones I have not gotten around to labeling yet. So should I assume that not labeling causes errors since all PURCHASED movies have labels ? NO. You have to look to all area's , different media batches, software changes, etc. The labels if properly applied (no sticky edges to catch or off center to snag the hub, have NO affect whatsoever. I have never seen one bleed, nor have they ever been so heavy as to cause problems. SEEK the truth and you will find. | ||||||
| cephraim posted 2003 Apr 02 13:35 | ||||||
| arcorob,
While your logic makes sense, there is enough emperical data out there in other forums to easily substantiate the placement of blame on labels for many media/player combos. :pensativo: | ||||||
| arcorob posted 2003 Apr 02 13:45 | ||||||
| I hear what you are saying but then would you say my case
210 VCD/ DVD's with labels working perfectly 8 UNLABELED DVD's with Blocks Is an anamoly ? And in addition, the 8 unlabeled work fine in a mintek .so I basically have 218, 210 labled, 8 unlabled that work fine. Maybe its those damn DVD-R media guys (JUST POKING THE LION) By the way, for clarification Media for VCD's - approx 175 burned All Diamond Media from Ebay except for 20 Maxell Media for DVD'+R (43 burned) All Ritek Purple bottoms purchased on EBAY With the recent spate of bad media from several LARGE sources particulaly what I saw on the DVD-R that people were unhappy with, perhaps there are some things working against us.... | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Apr 02 16:22 | ||||||
| arcorob, I have created a DVD and played it with no label, played perfectly all the way through. I then labelled it and played it again, I now had stuttering playback towards the end of the disc. This was enough to prove to me that the label was the cause of the bad playback and not the disc itself. This is something that I mentioned in the very first post of this thread. | ||||||
| Trenton_Net posted 2003 Apr 02 18:16 | ||||||
| As far as Im conserned, its a balance problem. No matter how accurate you'd like to think you could do it, even with a stomper you never get 100% perfect stamping. Which is also why many experts who master disks also say the exact same thing in regards to labeling Disks with stickers. | ||||||
| arcorob posted 2003 Apr 02 18:18 | ||||||
| Hmmm...You have have me thinking to much now...I was pricing CD printer today , about 370....But it is UNCLEAR about DVD printable media. I called them. They wont say it cant be SHINEY silver and must be white, but then again they wont commit .If a sharpie will cause bleed , how about a printer ?
So how do we get around this issue ? COuld it be the label type ? I am not having trouble with mine BUT who knows what will happen | ||||||
| Cyrl posted 2003 Apr 02 18:26 | ||||||
| Full coverage color printing on CD's with pre-printed labels... I wonder how much one of those would run.... | ||||||
| arcorob posted 2003 Apr 02 18:57 | ||||||
| Here is the printer
http://www.ezcdprint.com/Products/EZCDPrinter.html I would buy it but not to find out it cannot work on PLAIN DVD+R's. I switch my Riteks for no man...LOL | ||||||
| aybesea posted 2003 Apr 08 13:59 | ||||||
| Who knows? I've labeled about 400 DVDs so far without any issues at all. | ||||||
| pooh-bear posted 2003 Apr 12 14:48 | ||||||
| I have a theory that I is not just as simple as 'adding a label will make a faulty disk'. Heres my 2 penneth (ok I'm in the UK) :lol:
I have Datasafe disks (supposedly good disks and almost every disk I have labelled pixellates or freezes after about 1 hour into the (full) disk. My Pioneer player plays further without problems but still eventually goes belly up. Friends (cheaper players) get errors or don't play at all. I then bought some Ritek & Verbs. No problems with these even when labelled so I assumed Datasafe=crap disks. In a flash of wanton abandon I got a Datasafe disk that was labelled & pixellates and carefully removed the label. The disk now plays perfectly! All that I can deduce is this: 1. Depending on the player depends on how good it can track a disk whilst playing so some players may be fine others go belly up far easier. 2. Better quality disks have higher reflectivity and less production errors so a player can more easily compensate for errors caused by 'disk wobble'. All I can add is, if you have disks that you are happy with don't label them. If you want to label then be prepared for them either not working properly or not working on other players. Regards, Chris. | ||||||
| cephraim posted 2003 Apr 12 16:40 | ||||||
Or, try the no-wobble Compulabels. They are still working great for me, when no others were.... | ||||||
| gee69 posted 2003 Apr 12 17:10 | ||||||
| If you use these label printer like the 960 and the EZCD printer, does it need the printable DVD-R's or can us just say use the regular DVD-r like Ritek or Samsung BeAll...
:roll: | ||||||
| igalan posted 2003 Apr 13 16:27 | ||||||
| I use a CD/DVD printer (TDK) :) . Labels caused problems in the LG DVD, so I had to stops using sitcky labels (however the Kiss DVD plays the same DVDs flawless, with labels or not.) | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Apr 13 17:24 | ||||||
| :pooh-bear
Oh so you have had problems with labeling datasafe dvds to. I have had exact the same problems as you describe with these dvds(but about 50% of them seems to work). Now I'm workin witn NEO Premium(ritek) dvds and they seems to work just find(so far). So I thought that datasafe dvds don't like labels at all! I have labeld alot of dvds and it have been a mixed resultat so far. My Sony standalone player plays every dvd no matter what. Some of my datasafe dvds won't play correct,as I write above, in LG,Pioneer and Samsung players if I use full face labels. How ever if I use hub labels they seems to play fine. Also NEO Premium discs seems to play fine(so far) in every player no matter what I label them whit. So as you can read above there is many different factors that can effect the playback of your labeld dvds. | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Apr 13 17:36 | ||||||
| Craig Tucker:
I read that you have had problems when you tried label your dvds. Just curious about what media you where using? | ||||||
| Dcent posted 2003 Apr 13 19:03 | ||||||
.. no, I was talking about several media BRANDS ! Sorry about my bad English . I also do not have any problems with CDR's labels, only with DVD+-r !! | ||||||
| ricky136 posted 2003 Apr 15 14:38 | ||||||
| I have carried out an experiment. All discs which I burned were fitted with labels (matt finish) and after about 1 hr the playback went tits up and the movie stopped. At first i thought it was by burning procedure. After reading these posts on this subject i removed all labels from the 'faulty' discs and they played. One disc i burned about 1 month ago was fitted with a glossy label and works fine. I have now fitted the glossy labels to the discs and they play fine. The labels are from an expressit kit. I am using dvd decrypter to rip, dvd2one to compress and the latest nero using the udf/ifo method to burn the discs are discrite brand (80p each!) but show princo on dvd decrypter. Any thoughts? | ||||||
| jsnkc posted 2003 Apr 15 15:03 | ||||||
| IT has nothing to do with the quality of the DVD-R that you use, putting a paper label on a DVD is a lot diffrent than putting it on a CD, since a DVD can hold a lot more information than a CD the laser has to be a lot smaller, and therefore if the disc wobbles even slightly it can cause playabck problems. Another issue is that the lasers found in DVD players run a lot hotter than those in CD players, causing the adhesive glue to start to come off and even if you don't have problems now, the more you play the disc, and the longer the label is on it, the more problems you will find. The best way yo label a DVD disc is to use either an inkjet printer than prints directly on the disc such as the Primera Signature Pro, or to use a thermal printer such as the Rimage Prism, or the cheaper alternative would be the Casio CW-50 thermal printer wich is around $100. For those of you wh say "I don't have any problems" I can't wait till you try to play that disc back in a year or 2 and have the label come off in your DVD player, ruining not only your disc, but the player as well. | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Apr 16 11:23 | ||||||
| "For those of you wh say "I don't have any problems" I can't wait till you try to play that disc back in a year or 2 and have the label come off in your DVD player, ruining not only your disc, but the player as well."
Maybe your right jsnkc, but there is no proof that this will happen and I doubt it will. I have read alot about labels on many different sites, but I have actually never heard or seen anyone that got this problem after a year or so. | ||||||
| arcorob posted 2003 Apr 16 11:57 | ||||||
| I have NOT had issues with or without labels. Any issues I have had were software related (ie when IC 7 decided it didn't like the end of movies)
They all have labels, 2Up, paper, non-glossy and they work in a multitude of machines. How can this thread continue with the same premise ? If a person says I tried 10 with labels and 10 without, and the 10 with did not work, etc. then how does that build the premise that labeling DVD's is bad ? Maybe your labels are bad(off center). Maybe you are applying too much pressure when apply as the stomper allow you to warp a disk slightly and the disk stays that way when labled. I am not saying it is impossible, but try this. The person who says weighed 30 disk (store bought) and all weighed the same. DUH. I weighed thirty disks I labeled and they all weighed the same. Lets do some real testing...... | ||||||
| jsnkc posted 2003 Apr 16 12:42 | ||||||
| You guys should try to join the official DVD list, you will find tons of post of people who have had problems with Labels coming off an them ruining not only their disc, but their player as well. I also have a lot of CD's and DVD's that I labeled 1-2 years ago and already the labels are starting to come off on them. I would never use paper labels for anything again, and I would never have any of my clients use them, and I still will not put any DVD or CD in any players of mine that have paper labels on them. People here just seem to be really naive to reality, and are just looking for the cheapest way to do things and steal whatever software they want to. I know that in time all of you will find out what I and many other DVD professionals have found out, so feel free to stick whatever you want on your DVD's, you have been warned. Also, "REAL" testing as you say has been done, many times, and the reports are always the same, Don't use Paper Labels on DVD's you're just asking for trouble. | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Apr 16 15:26 | ||||||
And hopefully they'll contract SARS too! You sound like quite the vindictive chap. Do you really derive pleasure from other people's woes? The problem I see with this thread, at least for those hoping to find a solution, is that most posters seem to be stating their theorys as fact. There must be some scientific method you guys can use to get to the bottom of this (I don't have this issue - yet). | ||||||
| jsnkc posted 2003 Apr 16 16:21 | ||||||
| I'm not trying to be vindictive, I have just been doing CD and DVD duplication for a number of years now and I have probably seen more DVD's and Cd's that all of you combined. It is a known fact in the industry that you should not use paper labels on DVD's, I'm trying to convey my message to everyone on this board, but nobody seems to want to listen, and that is why I say that I warned all of you, and you can stick whatever it is that you want on your DVD's, just don't bring them to my company for duplication. | ||||||
| jsnkc posted 2003 Apr 16 16:33 | ||||||
| Just a few examples:
Q. Will paper DVD labels hurt my recorded DVDs? A. For many years, CD-R manufacturers recommended that users NOT apply paper labels to their newly recorded CDs. They felt that the labels' adhesive would harm the sensitive silver reflector by tarnishing it, or that off-center labels might cause the disc to wobble, making it unreadable. These factors are much more important today for DVD recordable discs than they ever were for CD-Rs. On DVD-Rs, the tiny data bubbles that encode the video and audio data are 8-times closer together than on CDs. Even the slightest degradation of the edges of the bubbles due to UV or heat exposure can ruin a DVD-R. Also, even the slightest wobbling during playback can make video tracks unreadable, or produce "jitters" or blinking, horizontal lines, and so on. In some cases, the discs can become completely unplayable. ___________________________________________________________ We have had this discussion many times before on this list. Proceed at your > own peril putting stickers on DVD's. Sure it may work for you but sooner or > later you will get nailed by it. Guaranteed. > > Regards to the list, > Roger Talkov > > DVDLabs > The Premiere DVD Services Facility ____________________________________________________________ BarryC, To be 100% safe you are correct in saying it is best not to use labels. We have seen labels that use inferior adhesive and they start to peel off, especially when exposed to heat. We have also seen label stock that is so thin that it can shrink and buckle on the surface of the CD. Both of these problems can potentially destroy you CD/DVD or the player. John Norman Max Optical _____________________________________________________________ Bill, I've found that placing any kind of adhesive label onto a DVD or CD is a bad idea. CD even more so because of their higher spin rate in modern drives. But the biggest concern is with the label tearing into the drive mechanism. There was even a consumer story I recently read where a DVD purchased at Walmart had an adhesive label from inside the case fall onto the *underside* of the disc - wrecking the disc. I'd recommend telling your clients to use printable surface disks (such as Verbatim's # 94058). If they don't have a CD printer, these discs can be gently written on with a felt tipped pen. BarryC _____________________________________________________________ > I've done hundreds of DVD's for customers and always assumed the paper labels > > were not a problem....well, I can now say...THEY ARE!!! I did three DVD's for > > a bat Mitzvah and all was well....labels were applied, and the customer said > > all three discs skipped and stuttered...unable to repeat the problem, i > > visited his home and RCA DVD player....all three discs skipped....the labels > > were properly applied,flat and centered well. I soaked the disks in warm > > water and carefully remover the labels (not easy)...and all three discs > > played perfectly....so, I will not now put labels on until i hear more from > > manufacturers. Take it for what it's worth,,, > > David johnson > > Tapetodisc.com _____________________________________________________________ You're right. I used a sticky label once. Never again. The disc played fine until we put the label on. After labeling it, the same Panasonic player had all sorts of trouble playing it. It did play back fine in a our Sony player though. But I wouldn't take a chance. Wayne Wayne Abler Educational Technologies University of Wisconsin-La Crosse _____________________________________________________________ Peter, As far as the Pioneer media is concerned, we do not recommend you paste any paper labels on them (as printed on the Pioneer DVD-R media's jewel case) . The media is created following the specifications created by the DVD Forum (DVD-R is 1.2mm in thickness). The label might cause the following to occur in some DVD-Video players; Pick-up mechanism might jam because of the new thickness of the disc. The new weight of the disc might exceed the servo motor's limit, causing the disc to not play. Although it might play back on some DVD video players, the paste underneath the label might shift, creating and unbalanced disc. For these and other reasons we highly recommend that you DO NOT paste paper labels on Pioneer DVD-R media. Regards, Elio Camey AE Product Development & Technical Support Division Pioneer New Media Technologies, Inc. I can find Hundreds of more posts just like these. Like I said, I warned ya. :D | ||||||
| No_clue posted 2003 Apr 16 17:46 | ||||||
| For the people asking about printing on DVDs with Epson printers, make sure that you only use INKJET PRINTABLE media! Do not use regular and thermal printable media. The ink will not dry on the surface and will just wipe off.
The Stylus Photo 960 with CD printing capabilities is very cool. I also hear that there is a new Stylus Photo 900 coming out in May that prints on CD/DVDs for $199 US. I'm kinda tempted. But just spent $300 on my pioneer and media. Think I'll wait. No Clue | ||||||
| arcorob posted 2003 Apr 16 19:07 | ||||||
| Again
UNINFORMED responses. Not trying to be confrontational, but would the one yelling DONT STICK LABELS ON - US PRO"S KNOW post a REAL link to any body of knowledge indicating this other than "there was this guy name Barry the CD man JOnes on the whippo board..." I am glad you don't use Paper labels, I own stock in Sharpie ! How about a real source ...Like when I contacted Ritek to ask them about printable DVD+R's I have a good urban legend for you but seems to work for me....The use of discs in a DVD player with paper labels causes the labels to adhere better because the laser seals them on :roll: | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Apr 16 22:16 | ||||||
| jsnkc,
I have 175 DVD's with paper labels that play on my player but not on my friends. I need to make copies of all of them. I'll bring them over this weekend. | ||||||
| Bob W posted 2003 Apr 16 22:24 | ||||||
| Any links to the Casio in the states?
Never mind I found it here for around $90. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details. ... ODE=NEXTAG | ||||||
| txpharoah posted 2003 Apr 16 23:24 | ||||||
| DVD-R manufacturers all warn you to not labels discs at some time. Go read up at their sites.
If you're still stubborn, then feel free to find DVD-R labels. CD-R labels are too heavy and too thick. All labels can be affected by heat on the glue, so buy good ones. I suggest the labels from americal.com, and nowhere else. Never get universal CD/DVD labels, also usually too heavy. Read this: http://americal.com/cgi-bin/smart_cart2.cgi?category=no-wobble%20 ... 25200_5667 Bad experiences here and with many I know using labels. Just don't do it. Buy coated discs to start with. Use a felt marker. If you really need a pretty item, then make a nice case. It's cheaper to replace a case than to fiddle with reburning a DVD. My suggestions. | ||||||
| markums2k posted 2003 Apr 17 01:46 | ||||||
| In case nobody has brought this up yet...
I use CORE labels. They only occupy the clear plastic space on the top of the disc, and do not actually sit on any reflective surface. Bastards to print on (alignment, etc.), but very clean and still look good, if that's important to you. | ||||||
| Henk posted 2003 Apr 17 12:50 | ||||||
| I'm happy to find out that I am not the only one with this problem. This problem already cost me a lot of money. I already tried every variable before noticing that the problem did not exist on the copies without the label. Did some testing, first watched the copies without the label. The movie played wonderful on my DVD Player (Philips 622). Then I applied the label and the copy stuttered / freezed at the end of the movie. This effect was reproducable!!!
Playing the labelled copies in a 'cold' DVD Player reduced the problems. After a few minutes the problem got bigger. De more the movie was compressed (Pinnacle Instant Copy/DVD2one) the bigger the problem on a labelled disk. Playing the labelled disks on a very old Sony DVD player did not give the problem. Variables that seem to influence the problems: sensitivity of the laser of the stand alone player, bitrate of the movie, type of label, media and amount of data on the disk The easiest solution to solve the problem for me was not to label my disks anymore. All my copies are excellent now!!!!!!!!! | ||||||
| jsnkc posted 2003 Apr 17 13:03 | ||||||
| All of those posts I have listed come from the official DVD List that has members from professional DVD Authoring and production people from around the world, as well as people and companies who actually developed the original DVD spec and who produce DVD media as well as DVD burners and players. I think you should find them a lot more credible than a bunck of people on this messageboard who need to steal software so they can illegaly copy movies and TV shows. I find it so funny reading some of the messages on these boards, and the things that people are trying to do.
Also they are not Unconfirmed responses, sign up for the DVD list then do a search and then you can e-mail all these people directly and ask them. Now that I think of it, don't join, the professional industry doesn't need people like you on that list. | ||||||
| arcorob posted 2003 Apr 17 13:39 | ||||||
| If yours is the attitude and demeanor of the "supposed professionals", then thank you, I will pass. The official DVD list ? Is that like the He-man woman haters club ?
I was not looking for testimonials. I was looking for hard facts from: Media Manufacturers Hardware Vendors Technical support groups Trust me when I say, the whole thread has me thinking. I am not closed minded to the issue and have even priced the Epson Stylus 960 which writes directly to Printable media. And being an 'open minded' professional, I am first investigating whether or not ink has any effect on the media. Sincerely, People Like me Arc Technologies Video Memories | ||||||
| jsnkc posted 2003 Apr 17 14:02 | ||||||
| The posts I gave you were from Media Manufacturers,
Hardware Vendors and Technical support groups. Most of them came from people who either Duplicate DVD's, Author DVD's, or produce DVD's in some way. And even one from Pioneer, the people who actually MADE the first DVD Burner! | ||||||
| arcorob posted 2003 Apr 17 14:54 | ||||||
| Well thats what I wanted to know ~!!!!
Now find out about INK jets fo me because the 690 is looking better and better. Ritek has already written to me about their DVD+R Printable. Now I need test data on their use in machine(set top) See, people can work together. | ||||||
| jsnkc posted 2003 Apr 17 15:11 | ||||||
| We have 3 Signature Pro printers on the Composer plus robotics, they work great for inkjet printing on DVD-R's, we usually stick to Maxell, and Verbatim white inkjet printable DVD's. We also have a Rimage Prism Plus thermal printer wich also prints very well on DVD's and Cd's, the only problem is that the DVD media designed for thermal printing reflects anything you print on the disc kind of giving it a mirrored effect wich is very hard to read on small text. | ||||||
| ochsfamily posted 2003 Apr 18 22:14 | ||||||
| any idea on something to assist in creating a dvd case cover? | ||||||
| txpharoah posted 2003 Apr 19 02:39 | ||||||
| For DVD case work, use Photoshop, and make you case 200 dpi (or 300 dpi) and size of about 7.1 x 10.7. Use a ruler on your case for exact dimensions, as each brand is slightly different in specs.
Jsnkc knows what he's talking about. DVD labels are not supported nor used in any professional manner. That DVD industry list is a great source of info. If the labels were so great, companies would be using paper instead of going to great lengths and expense to thermal print (and other techniques) on discs. But it doesn't work, and so we don't. And I can agree with him on other aspects too: this board is crawling with too many people that only want to believe their own uninformed opinions rather than knowing true facts. If you don't like the answer, don't ask (or read) the question. And I would concur on his statement: "Now that I think of it, don't join, the professional industry doesn't need people like you on that list." We don't get paid those nice salaries to listen to kids that just want to copy discs and not pay for anything, then whine about labels breaking their toys. (I subscribe to several too.) Teaching newbies is one of my hobbies, as I work with this stuff professionally with equipment otherwise unavailable to consumers (although I have a more encumbering media position with other media aspects as well). But I get can easily aggitated when an obvious teenager has a run at the mouth. Listen to us. We're trying to help you, but you have to be quiet long enough to listen. You should feel lucky there are pros here crawling these boards (though some of us keep identities to ourselves as to not piss off the company we work for ;-) ). I personally tried to be stubborn several times too. I thought: If all these hobbiest have success, maybe I can too. Well, I didn't: the labels ruined my discs too. So I had to learn the hard way, and worse yet, I already knew better. The labels don't work. Just don't let your stubbornness get the better of you. We all fall for it sometimes. ;-) For you that use labels. Good job at getting good luck. But think of labeling discs as speeding. It will only work for so long, and eventually you're going to get stuck with a mess to deal with. | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Apr 19 16:53 | ||||||
First, thanks to anyone actually trying to help people. Having said that, I personally can do without the attitude. I can't speak for anyone else, but if someone is going to have an "Im the grownup, listen to me because I'm right and you're wrong" attitude, I'd rather just keep making my "mistakes" as you put it. I caould be wrong, but it seems to me that you guys are taking these posts as some kind of personal attack or something. I do believe many people have problems with labels. I've been burning DVD's for a good year and a half, and no problems so far. Also, look at the poll at the top of the page - the majority of people who've voted report no problems. The interesting thing is it's usually the complainers who make the most noise, but these are people saying they haven't had a problem! Now, I'm sure there are a lot of people who've had problems with labels. So they should stop using them. I myself plan to get a printer that can print directly on the disc, not because of problems with labels, but because I expect it to look more professional. All I'm asking is, if you want to help, please loose the attitude. That is not helpful! | ||||||
| mtremel posted 2003 May 30 15:10 | ||||||
| I am looking at buying an Epson Photo 900, but am having trouble finding printable media. Compatiblity is also a concern for my set top players (panasonic a120 and pioneer 343). Any suggestions? :) | ||||||
| MATT_THE_MOUSE posted 2003 May 30 16:07 | ||||||
| :shock: BINGO :shock:
!!I TOO HAVE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM!! I think its safe to say that the problem is the disks overheating in the dvd player along with the fitted labels.. for example i played a film all the way through with a label fitted and towards the end it started to pause,skip and jump,i ejected the disk and found that it was exceedingly hot,i checked the disk for physical damage and found nothing,i also let the disk cool down before played it again.i then skipped to the same section where it started to play up and found that it played the rest of the film ok with no probs......... Do you think that the labels do hold in the heat slightly more than the retail printed ones???........as you know the retail dvd's are reflected by using silver type foil thus bouncing off the heat during playback,the blank dvd's are of the dye type and i think that the extra heat build-up might cause the ink to melt or soften????? I have played two films un-labelled and have no probs with them even when my 4 year old son played them two-times in a row...... | ||||||
| andkiich posted 2003 May 30 18:22 | ||||||
| I just labeled 2 DVD's. I'll keep this post in mind in case there is any issue. I use Sharpies sometimes too, but now it looks like that might be out as well.
"It's gettin' to be so a guy can't have no fun no more!" | ||||||
| thayne posted 2003 Aug 04 21:18 | ||||||
I have noticed that too, I guess this proves +R/RW's are better :D | ||||||
| Ruude posted 2003 Aug 05 05:49 | ||||||
| OK, this is what happens at my end:
The combination of Mame-Mitsui discs and a fairly thick label always give probs when disc is played for approx. 1 hour. The disc gets rather hot because of the thick paperlabel and stutters or refuses to play on my JVC-HR-XV2E. (Plays fine on a really cheap Daytek 707 though.) When the discs is cooled down, I can play the concerning and following chapters again. When I use cheaper labels, which are thinner, the probs are not so apparent. Discs without a paper label play every time. So for me it's definately a label/heat prob. and thick paper labels are a BIG no-no. Now I'm going to try a real flimsy label printed on a colour laserprinter. Keep you posted.... | ||||||
| pighead posted 2003 Aug 05 10:33 | ||||||
| I made a wedding DVD for a freind and use a sticky label, a week later he said the the player began to produce a burning smell and then smoke a little ( I think he was being a little dramatic) but he said that the label was loosened and the disc was hot. | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Aug 05 11:30 | ||||||
| A friend of mine claims a disc I made for him with a printed label began to skip after about 90 minutes. The whole player started to wobble, then shake violently.
His AV cabinet began to move around the room, knocking into other objects and causing them to fall over and break. The disc was finally thrown free of the player and struck his wife in the neck, closing off her windpipe. He had to run outside and cut the power to the whole house. His living room was a shambles and his wife was rushed to the hospital. He has requested that I use thinner labels in the future. | ||||||
| tompika posted 2003 Aug 05 11:46 | ||||||
I have most of my DVD+Rs marked with a thick paint marker. Guess what, no skipping ,no balance problems, no nothing. And I`ve tried them in dozens of players | ||||||
| dicktheprick posted 2003 Aug 05 12:34 | ||||||
| I've used the cd stomper labels for over a year, havent had a single problem.
Im finding that dvd backup isnt an exact science and that what works for some one wont work for others. there are too many variables: types of media, labels or no labels, standalone players, authoring apps, etc. The thing of it is, find what works best for you. If your player doesnt work with labels dont put em on. The forum is getting to be a place of opinion instead of knowlege; -r is better than +r or dvd2one is better than ic7. Find what works for you and stick with it. if you run into a problem, consult the forum. | ||||||
| KetchSumAir posted 2003 Aug 05 14:52 | ||||||
Wow - I had no idea.... :shock: :shock: :shock: Well, I've used labels for some time now, but I have kids - I simply can't risk it anymore.... Inkjets - here I come! P.S. Is there any way to SAFELY dispose of these DVD's with labels? If they get into the wrong hands - look at the damage that could be done! | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Aug 05 15:22 | ||||||
What my friend did was to call the local HASMAT. They sent in a robotic device to retreive the disc. It was then flown to New Jersey along with some nuclear waste. | ||||||
| Fatal_Flaw posted 2003 Aug 05 15:28 | ||||||
| A question to all of you who have applied labels and now have problems.
Can the dvd-rom drive in your pc read the discs ok? | ||||||
| dicktheprick posted 2003 Aug 05 15:57 | ||||||
| i havent had any problems with any player including dvd-roms | ||||||
| cplevel42 posted 2003 Aug 05 16:24 | ||||||
| It is quite clear that the variable here is the playback device! Some DVD players can handle the extra weight of the labels and some cannot (thin labels included). There is a reason that DVD manufacturers say "DON"T USE LABELS". It is risky!!! And results are varied.
There are some differences between CD-R and DVD-R. CD-Rs have the data surface on the top of the CD. This is why it is not always a great idea to use sharpies on CD-R. The ink can bleed through to the data layer and render the data useless. This is very rare though. If the CD-R has a white glossy surface, 99% of the time you are OK with a sharpie. A poster recommended a permanent CD pen that does not use harsh solvents. This is a good idea. CD printers are also a good idea if you are willing to spend the extra money. Labels for CD-R is never a good idea. The reason is that when a label is removed, it can often peel away the data portion of the CD-R. Remember, the data layer of a CD-R literally sits right on top of the CD-R. Also, studies have shown that the adhesive in many labels can break down (chemically Change) over time and eat away at the data layer on a CD-R. DVDs are manufactured quite differently than CD-Rs. DVDs have the data layer sandwiched in between two plastic discs, so there is no way that the data layer can be scratched or be compromised by a sharpie. By the same token, a peeling label can always be safely removed from a DVD without worry about peeling away the data layer. Review: If you are using a sharpie to label your DVDs, there is no risk to your data or playback device. The ink in sharpies cannot penetrate the plastic layer. If you are using a sharpie to label CD-R, there is slight risk, but almost none with good quality CD-R. If you are using Labels with DVDs, you are risking the data on the disc as well as the playback device. All DVDs are made to be weight specific. This is for a reason! DVD players are made to play DVDs that are within spec. A DVD that has a label on it, even if it's a thin one, is NOT in spec, PERIOD!!! Using Labels with CD-R is risky for the playback device, especially for slot loading players where the added thickness can cause a CD to get jammed in the player. It's also a risk when peeling off a label because of the data may get peeled off as well. But there is one small advantage to using labels with CD-R. This is only a short-term advantage though. Since the data layer is located on the top of the CD. The label can actually protect the data, especially if the user is quite rough on the discs. Sometimes all it takes is one scratch to the top of a CD, not the bottom, to make it skip. Even though this is a short-term advantage, it is out-weighed by the risks. Conclusion: Labels = Looks OK at a higher monetary cost, but with lots of risk. Sharpie = Not always pretty, but cheap with almost no risk. CD Pens = Same as above; Maybe $1.00 more per pen, NO RISK. Printers = Professional looking, No risk, Highest monetary cost. | ||||||
| ephesus posted 2003 Aug 05 17:54 | ||||||
| I'm sold. Labeling DVD's is sinful and I should stop. I too have problems with labeled DVD's in my Pioneer standalone and I was planning on buying a less sensitive DVD player. That's not too big a deal, however, I don't like the fact that my DVD's are less globally compatible due to my labels. The budget-friendly thermal printing looks a little cheesy to me. It's hard to go from full-color laser printed labels to grayscale. How are the results with the Epson inkjet? Can somebody please post a scan of their results? TIA. | ||||||
| pighead posted 2003 Aug 06 17:27 | ||||||
Thanx Leebo, I needed that! :lol: | ||||||
| defense posted 2003 Aug 10 19:21 | ||||||
| I just read this entire thread and all I can say is WOW...i'm glad I never labeled or even ATTEMPTED to label ANY of my DVD's. Never labelled any of my cd's either. I'd have to say that there must be 80% of the people in this thread had immediate issues labelling their DVD's! In addition, the ones who claim they haven't had any issues are probably gonna be up shits creek without a paddle..because over time the adhesive wears and can cause a number of issues.
I hope the FEW that have had success, continue to have success...but look at the numbers....you are fighting a losing battle. Long Live DVD Markers! :D | ||||||
| paulwill posted 2003 Aug 12 13:52 | ||||||
| I completely agree with alhall. The issue is the the media, not labeling. I labled about 200 dvd-r's, and never ran into the problem of a disc skipping, pixelating and freezing in the last 10% of the disc UNTIl I got these wonderful Princo 1x Logo tops. I'm totally bummed. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Aug 12 14:22 | ||||||
I chose the second answer, but only because it was the closest to what I wanted to choose:
Hail to hubs! :D | ||||||
| Metaluna posted 2003 Aug 12 15:53 | ||||||
These theories can not explain how someone can take a perfectly working disc, label it, and have it stop working in the exact same player. Assuming the user did not damage the disc during labeling (other than the hypothetical damage caused by the label itself), how can you explain that away by saying it's a bad batch of media? The disc used to work. Now it doesn't. What changed? You could also reasonably hypothesize that the people who are having no problems are using good quality media, which has a sufficient margin of safety such that the damage caused by the label doesn't result in uncorrectable PI/PO errors or tracking problems. But we have no way of knowing how close to the edge the good quality discs are being pushed by the application of the label, if at all. If someone with a labeler has access to a Liteon DVD-ROM and Kprobe it might be enlightening to run a PI/PO scan before and after application of the label (at 1X speed of course). | ||||||
| jntaylor63 posted 2003 Aug 12 16:10 | ||||||
| Want a nice safe label, use the neato core labels! :idea:
They cover the clear plastic from the center hole to the near edge of the where the data starts on the other side. Some of you may have seen these with your BlockBuster rentals. You just need the neato media face software to create. (Version 2 is free) Plus the labels are cheap! (100 for 10.00 USD) True, the text/logos are smaller than a full label, but it looks a hell of a lot better than a Sharpie! | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Aug 12 16:30 | ||||||
| I use the Surething hub labels (see earlier post). They are like jntaylor's but Surethings cost $9.95 for 520 labels. I wish Jntaylor had given us a picture, so maybe we could see why they would be worth paying five times as much than you would pay for Surething's. :D | ||||||
| jntaylor63 posted 2003 Aug 12 16:39 | ||||||
| Tommy,
Sorry for my type-o Its 100 sheets at 10.00 USD. With 20 labels per sheet! | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Aug 12 18:13 | ||||||
| tommy and jntaylor63,
Where do you buy these? CompUSA? Their perfect for double sided discs. | ||||||
| CHAOS posted 2003 Aug 12 18:37 | ||||||
Yep, I was thinking this also only a couple of post's down the thread. Try the same dvd's in diff. players & see what happens. I have put labels on all my dvd+r's and vcd/svcd's, never had a problem with any of my dvd+r's. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Aug 12 23:49 | ||||||
| Leebo, click here, although I have to defer to jntaylor63, he does have the better deal. :D | ||||||
| Mysterio posted 2003 Aug 27 14:12 | ||||||
| HI dvd techies,
I use LabelDr with ICD CoolBella and never had a problem and neither have my friends. They are not that thick and stick very well. CYa, Mysterio | ||||||
| phatnadz posted 2003 Aug 27 15:24 | ||||||
| Is it okay to sharpie a DVD? | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Aug 27 16:34 | ||||||
Yes | ||||||
| JMO posted 2003 Aug 27 20:02 | ||||||
| I've been making DVD recordings for nearly three months now, since I bought by pride-and-joy standalone recorder (a Philips DVDR880). I couldn't be happier with it, but for the first month, I was labelling the discs I made with NEATO labels (and one of their stompers). I started hearing alarming things about using labels on this forum among others, so I revisited the discs I'd made and to my horror, they were all acting up. Sometimes they'd play, other times they's pixellate to hell, stutter or even stop dead in their tracks. I was horrified.
I had a disc I wasn't too worried about, and being of a bloody-minded nature, I tried methylated spirits (wood alcohol) to try to get the label off. That didn't work, so I tried turps substitute instead. That brought the label off, but left a gunk layer behind that had to be wiped off with a rag. Surprisingly, the disc played after that - without any trouble. I was even able to back the data up to a fresh disc without getting cyclic redundancy errors like the labelled discs were giving. I'm now working through the other discs making safe backups, but I'm keeping the originals to see if the turps has any adverse effect in future. I rinse the discs under running water before drying them and copying them. Needless to say, I'm only labelling discs by writing around the hub margin with a Sharpie now. Moral of story - don't label. | ||||||
| Tranceaddict posted 2003 Aug 28 07:48 | ||||||
| personally i label ALL of my dvd's.... no playback problems whatsoever.... and i make many labeled dvd's for friends and family and they never have problems.... the people in this forum that do, probably have POS dvd players | ||||||
| Hardcoreruss posted 2003 Aug 28 07:55 | ||||||
Whats a POS dvd player ? | ||||||
| Tranceaddict posted 2003 Aug 28 07:59 | ||||||
| POS just stands for piece of sh*t.... didnt wanna use bad words... sorry | ||||||
| VinnySem posted 2003 Aug 28 08:22 | ||||||
It has little to nothing to do with the DVD player, and more to do with the quality of media and the thickness of the label. I have a Philips DVD player which will play anything I've ever thrown at it EXCEPT any DVD labelled with a Neato or a Meritline label. I started using the ultra-thin frosty no-wobble labels from Americal which work fantastically. I also use BeAll media exclusively, which are, in my opinion, the best media you can buy. Any disk I've given to anyone regardless of their make of DVD player has been able to read a BeAll with an Americal disk. | ||||||
| Tranceaddict posted 2003 Aug 28 08:27 | ||||||
| thats interesting, cuz i use the neato labels on all my dvd's,. and they play flawlessly... so it absolutely is the either a) the person dont know how to correctly center, and apply the label, or b) the dvd player cant handle it | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Aug 28 09:52 | ||||||
:lol: | ||||||
| teddymines posted 2003 Aug 28 11:25 | ||||||
| I suspect one or more factors come into play:
1. The extra mass makes your player fail trying to servo the spindle. The motor and firmware are probably just adequate enough to respond in time to speed changes based upon the mass of the media. Extra performance in firmware and hardware may mean extra cost. 2. A perfectly centered label may appear perfectly centered, but variations in thickness and the true spindle center might not be visibly verifyable. There is no such thing as perfectly balanced, only balanced enough to be handled by the player. 3. Another possibility could be how the media responds to heat with and without the label. A label may tend to insulate the media, thereby making it less able to cool. The heat will expand the media, more toward the outer edge, making track pitch uneven, or the disc unbalanced. Also, the label itself may flex (expand) when heated, making the disc bow downward along the outer edge, affecting focus and tracking. One way to experiment with option 3 is to run your player with the cover off, or in varying temperatures. | ||||||
| Tranceaddict posted 2003 Aug 28 11:34 | ||||||
| Hey, Good point! I guess its just a matter of the brand of DVD player in question. I have a panasonic dvd-rv21, and a cheapo Avia dvd player and they both play without any problems. And i've yet to find a friend or family worker have a problem either... Guess we've all been lucky that way... Or i've just been luckey to get the label centered correctly.. If i did start having problems, then i'd rethink labeling my dvd's. | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Aug 28 12:21 | ||||||
| In the end, everybody is really just guessing.
For everyone who complains about "label problems", there's another who claims they never have problems (I'm in the latter group). Many of the "Problem" people claim they've done tests which prove their case, but many "Non-complainers" claim the same thing. In the end, there's is no cut and dry proof. My opinion is that many more people will post a complaint then will post a success, because if things are working well you usually don't feel the need to post. On to the next topic: Why are Windows machines better than Macs? | ||||||
| Tranceaddict posted 2003 Aug 28 12:41 | ||||||
| thats an easy one.... cuz macs suck.... if you like to be gouged on their rediculous hardware, be my guest.... and if you like a very small selection of software be my guest as well.... now all the sucker mac zealots will disagree... but hey, at least i'm not broke after building my awesome setup.. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2003 Aug 28 13:28 | ||||||
Have you been introduced to TGPO yet :D | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Aug 28 13:47 | ||||||
| Yes, but he's just a youngster. With age comes decreased bowel movements, er, I mean experience. | ||||||
| BReeve posted 2003 Aug 28 14:37 | ||||||
| I have burnt many DVDs well over 500. I have used many brands of DVDs (but all 4x) and many brands of label. I also have an Epson Stylus Photo 900 which prints directly onto the disc. I have had no problems with any of my discs and they play on many different DVD players (standalone and PC). I have printed on the label before and after application. I use 2 Pioneer 105 and always burn at 4x. I also use the stomper machine.
I havent got an idea to your problem, just thought i would share. Hope you all fix your problem. | ||||||
| JMO posted 2003 Aug 28 17:31 | ||||||
| I've found white spirit shifts labels the best. Swab on to the paper surface of the label just enough to make the label go translucent and leave it for five minutes. The label peels off with the minimum fuss. A quick wipe with a white spirit moistened Kleenex to get any last vestiges, then run it under the cold tap to wash away any residual chemical both sides. Pat dry with a paper towel and polish with a spectacle cleaning cloth. I then duplicate the disc to have a working backup. | ||||||
| RabidDog posted 2003 Aug 28 20:48 | ||||||
| :) I take it a "sharpie" is a biro?? they are provided free in the Uk by banks and willaim hill (and now BT has taken away our public toilets) 8)
But my real point is where can I buy hub labels and software in the UK?? web sites or retail? or a very cheap cdr capable printer? I dont label my cdr I dont burn DVd | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Aug 28 21:05 | ||||||
http://www.surething.uk.com/  | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Aug 28 21:06 | ||||||
biro??? Don't know what that is, but a "Sharpie" is a brand name for a perminent marker. Write on your skin with one and it'll be with you for a week. | ||||||
| RabidDog posted 2003 Aug 28 21:25 | ||||||
| :shock: permanent marker? no thats what we call a stanley knife!
Biro ? Laslo biro inventor of the ball point pen, what about software for printing these hub labels as they are very specialized. I'm very impressed by your example! its a BAD website tho... :lol: just a thought if stelios hajuou opens a brothel in nevada what will it be called?? | ||||||
| JMO posted 2003 Sep 01 22:05 | ||||||
| Sharpies are Sanford Sharpie Extra Fine Point Permanent Markers (the sort of thing you draw on OHP film with). Available from all good stationers).
You might as well use a rusty nail to engrave on your disc as use a bog standard biro, BTW. | ||||||
| LanEvo7 posted 2003 Sep 01 22:32 | ||||||
| Still nobody knows the long term effect so stick labels on the DVD. Even if you do get it centered and your dvd player can play it, there is always the question of what happens when the adhesives degrades over time. Just something to think about. | ||||||
| ceptico posted 2003 Sep 02 03:26 | ||||||
| I have had Label problems since the beginning.When I realized that the disks started to fail near the end I thought it was all about cheap media.After a few experiments I took off one of the bad disks label and tried it with a Disk verify sw.And there it was, the disks that failed where playing flawlessly.
I´ve used this product with excellent results http://www.mantech.co.za/KONTAKT/K50.htm Just apply,wait about 2 minutes then remove without effort and without glue sticking everything.[/url] | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Sep 02 04:33 | ||||||
My disk problems disappeared after I changed to hub labels.
 | ||||||
| RabidDog posted 2003 Sep 03 05:44 | ||||||
| :P your hub label looks good but how do you get that raised edge effect? the silver ring at the outside of the hub label. Plus how much info can you put on a hub label. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Sep 03 08:02 | ||||||
| ||||||
| cognacdog2 posted 2003 Sep 15 16:53 | ||||||
| :-x
I wish I read this forum before I purchased a new pioneer dvd player for the tv. I was wondering why my dvdr's were freezing 20 to 40 minutes into the disk and tried numerous brands, numerous software , then decided my 2 yr old jvc machine must be going faulty. So I purchased a new machine and the disks still froze! Then i thought, about it some more and realised it had seemed to start about the time I started labelling my disks, so i did a search on the net and here we are - I have found the problem. So I removed the labels and they all WORKED faultlessly!! I found the best way to remove them is with wd40 or similar , soak the label and the whole lot peels off very easily in 1 minute, wash it in luke warm water and a few drops of dishwashing liquid. Leave to dry and then mark with a pen. No more labels for me on dvd's. | ||||||
| The village idiot posted 2003 Sep 15 17:36 | ||||||
| New silver metalic Sharpie?
Be interesting to see how many people who once used labels or markers, now use an inkjet printer. | ||||||
| thayne posted 2003 Sep 15 17:49 | ||||||
| I never had any problems with standard labels, but I have switched to the hub labels now cause I think they look cool :D | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Oct 10 14:01 | ||||||
| I have label my dvd:s for nearly one year now. I have tested alot of different media and lots of different labels. I have made alot of diffent tests and found out that many thing will affect whether or not you running in to troubel or not with labels.
First i used pretty cheap labels and run into problem direct, pixeling freezing and so on. Then I start to use quit expensive labels, but still i got problems. Some of the dvds run into problems in some dvds, well they allways played perfect in my Philips and Sony, however not in some piooner's for exampel. So I tried out some more expensive media. And now say 6 out of 7 worked fine in all dvds, but still 1/7 start pixeling. I'm still here today. I can not be sure that the labeld dvd:s worked 100% in all dvds. But hey 6/7 works in all dvds and they allways works in my two dvd:s so I don't take this as a very big problem, but it would be fine to find a solution of a media and label that allways worked fine in all player. I'm still testing differnet medias and hope to find the perfect media some day! | ||||||
| leebo posted 2003 Oct 10 16:26 | ||||||
Well good luck on that one! | ||||||
| RabidDog posted 2003 Oct 12 04:31 | ||||||
| :) give us some of your findings, you say cheap labels cause problems, is this because they are thick? expensive labels .. are these thin? what makes are the "good" labels? pressit? we need to know! | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Oct 16 13:59 | ||||||
| Well as i wrote, there are lots of different thing that will affect wheter or not the labeld dvd will work fine or not!
I don't think the label it self is the most importent factor. But at first i used cheap crap labels, those started wobbeld after some time and didnt play at all in the dvd. But after that i have used more expensive labels like Neato and avery glossy and semiglossy fullface labels. No wobbels or any problem with any of those labels. So I think it has more to do with media and other factors. | ||||||
| FOO posted 2003 Oct 16 14:15 | ||||||
| All the concern here seems to be about radial weight.
Has anyone considered that there is a top spindle that drops down on the disk that may cause wobble with a non uniform relatively thick addition to the disk. ? | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Oct 16 14:40 | ||||||
| But if a thin hub label is on the disk, the chance of radial weight wobble or spindle wobble induced by a top spindle is reduced by up to 80% as opposed to a full label by the hub label's lesser weight alone. Just my opinion. | ||||||
| kisrum posted 2003 Oct 16 15:30 | ||||||
| I don't label CD's or DVD's. After having CD's go through a flood, and having the label glue and paper turn to sludge, and in some cases contaminate the bottom of other CD's, I decided it just wasn't worth it. Unlabeled, ungluey CD's played fine after the flood. Labeled CD's did not, without EXTENSIVE rehab.
No experience with DVD labels, but I still won't do it, especially since they are more likely to have important memories rather than just tunes. | ||||||
| g12345567 posted 2003 Oct 16 23:22 | ||||||
| I am now experiencing problems with some mp3 cdr's with matt lables.
the mp3 cds without lables every track plays fine. the mp3 cds with lables after a while start to play up jump all over the place or even eventually freeze the player having to turn the power of to reset. As stated earlier I was thinking it may be the amount of heat inside the player. They do tend to generate a fair bit. Anybody confirm this? i'm using them on a stand alone dvd player with mp3 compatable lables don't cause problems on my portable cd/mp3 player because there is nothing in contact with lables unlike cd/dvd players that clamp on both sides. On a side note I have left my DVD player Cool Down For An Hour And now the labled CDR Discs All Play fine. The labels I am using have an adverse affect to heat if my player has been left on for a very long time. Affecting playback of media. p.s. haven't tried labeling my dvdr's yet. Does the type of disc surface affect the lable quality. ie there are discs with a labeled surface or plain surface of a partiular color. Whislt other cd media with no such label looks exactly the same on both top and bottom surface which could eaasily accept a lable. | ||||||
| bravo posted 2003 Oct 16 23:29 | ||||||
I have never labled my dvd-rs and i still get the freezing at the end of disks. I think it is something else besides the labels. What i don't know. Also the same disk seems to play all the way with no problems in one dvd player and then freeze up in the next one. It happens all the time. So i think it might be the dvd player or the media. | ||||||
| proton posted 2003 Oct 17 06:15 | ||||||
Can't find hub labels on that website! | ||||||
| DavidEC posted 2003 Oct 18 15:59 | ||||||
| I feel that labeling of DVD's seems to have more to do with the media and the labels combined....
I have a DVD+R/RW drive.... While I have had troubles with "Verbatim" brand of disc's... both unlabeld and labeled. Yet I have never had trouble with "Maxell", "Phillips", or "Memorex" brands of discs.. And I am using cheap 'eBay' purchased bulk "Neto Style' generic "Mate" lables that are very thin paper stock..... after printing the label I allow the ink to dry for at least an haour if not longer before applying the label to the disc. To make sure that I do not get finger prints all over the read side of the disc I use a blank CD to press the disc face down onto the label... then I take a plastic "dummy" credit card and smooth out the label from the center hub out to the edge... I have burned close to 40 DVD+R's to date.. And everyone has played back just fine.... | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Oct 18 16:03 | ||||||
| The thing is, lots of people have labeled CDs with very few, if any problems. Hpwever, many people also have problems with the disks they label, and not with the ones they do not label. | ||||||
| Kingnog posted 2003 Oct 18 16:25 | ||||||
| My labeled vcd/svcd's seem to have problems. (Im not using DVD disks) The 'pauses' get worse later on in the movie, until its every few seconds. However, my cd's that are NOT labeled dont have problems, but I havent tested them without their labels to be sure. | ||||||
| RabidDog posted 2003 Oct 19 05:29 | ||||||
| :( proton .. i could only find hub labels as part of a larger pack .. not a cost effective way of getting them. | ||||||
| videobruce posted 2003 Oct 24 11:51 | ||||||
| Has anyone just used labels from labeling machines as ones from Brother (P-Touch series) as opposed to full round cover the whole disk labels which I assume that is what everyone is talking about?
I use these P-Touch labels with regular CD's with no known problems. I make the label as short as possible and apply it as close to the center as possibel. If I need 2 labels I put them on opposite sides of the disc to balance it out. I do realize DVD's are probably more sensisitive than just DR-R's. | ||||||
| stuart49 posted 2003 Oct 24 15:27 | ||||||
| I have labelled hundreds of dvds and it is not really the label that is the problem but the quality of the blank dvd,stick a label on a verbatim or good quality dvdr and you should have no problems,cheaper dvdrs is when the problem starts,a good quality twin waive laser dvd player will read the cheap media well but a poor cheap machine or PS2 probably will have problems...in the end you only get what you pay for so buy the best media and/or dvd player you can afford to eliminate... | ||||||
| trossin posted 2003 Oct 24 17:20 | ||||||
| I use DVD+R in a Panasonic RV-31 labeled with matt labels applied with a CD stomper and have had no problems. As far as the off balance theory goes, Blockbuster used to put magnetic anti-theft strips on the disks and my player had no problem with them. The player did make a little noise to let me know the disk was off balance. Maybe other folks did have problems so they stopped applying the bars. | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Oct 26 10:33 | ||||||
| Well Stuart49 I think you are right. I have find out that differnet media handel labels very different. My labeld datawrite dvd+r freeze in all poor dvd player, but also in piooner and panasonic, which are pretty expensive players. About 6/7 of my Neo premium dvd+r(most stabel media so far) plays in evry player with out problems. However my two players, a sony and a Philips plays all my labeld dvd+r just fine, no matter what media.
Just bought a pack of Ritek and verbatim. The first Ritek I burnt and labeld did freeze in a poor player. Havent burnt any of the Verbatim jet hope they will be as good as my Neo premium was. | ||||||
| harpe025 posted 2003 Oct 26 12:54 | ||||||
I too have burned over 160 DVD-Rs and no one has reported a problem to me nor have I had a problem with any I have played (or bought from people). I apply mine carefully and although the weight of the ink shouldn't matter, try to have graphics equally spaced on the label. I have a graphic in the top, bottom, and two sides centered from the edges and middle. I figure this should aleviate any balancing problems with ink (should that be the case). | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Oct 26 13:04 | ||||||
| If it is a "crap shoot" that you may get problems using full labels and you may not, why take the chance? | ||||||
| GKar posted 2003 Oct 26 15:06 | ||||||
| Thanks for the tip guys/gals. I soaked 3 movies in warm water and peeled the labels off them, and low and behold, no more skipping, blockiness etc...near the end of the movies...I do believe it is the application of the label, not the labels themselves or the ink. I use a Canon i320 printer, generic paper labels, a non-stomper label applicator on TDK and Memorex 4x DVD+R's. Wish I hadn't thrown away 4 other movies! I have at least 100 DVD's that have the same labels and ink and they are ok, so 1 vote for the problem being with the application of the label.
Kudos All! Mike | ||||||
| musotechy posted 2003 Oct 27 12:32 | ||||||
| Sorry for the bump on an old post!!!
The problem is down to the quality of media. I have been burning CD's for years and adding labels. It was only when I switched to a really cheap unbrabded disc that I started to have problems. What I noticed was, the strength of the stick of the label started to lift the backing off of the disc, effectively making the surface to be read warped. Cheap media has it's place but this is one of those times when spending a bit more is for the best. Thanks | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Oct 27 14:05 | ||||||
| So you can buy expensive disks and use full-priced full-covered labels, or use discount-priced disks and inexpensive hub labels? Hmmmm.... :lol: :lol: :lol: | ||||||
| musotechy posted 2003 Oct 27 15:52 | ||||||
| Don't really get your point.
My suggestion is, buy a disc with a decent coating (usually found on more expensive discs) if you want to use sticky labels. Use what ever labels you want. Thanks | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Oct 28 06:22 | ||||||
| Well you have a point musotechy, but it's not sure that expensive disks works better. But normaly those cheap disks run into problem when you apply a label on them. But you can never be sure that expensive media will work either. Just bougt a pack of pretty expensive verbatim dvd+r 4x, will be back with the results of this disks..... | ||||||
| divi2323 posted 2003 Oct 28 07:23 | ||||||
| Actually, I used to work for a company that manufactured cdrom drives.
This is caused by the paper made off center, so when the label is applied the disc becomes unstable and "wobbles" quite a bit. even the slightest off balance of the label can make the entire disc unstable and in some cases unreadable. this used to happen alot with CDR's but companies spent more money balancing them and the labels, and the problem subsided. My solution to everyone is to buy high quality labels or like someone mentioned above, very thin low profile ones. direct to CD Printers are also a great bet. hope this helps. | ||||||
| grossjamesh posted 2003 Oct 28 11:10 | ||||||
| I just purchased the MEMOREX label system. After 25 DVDs no problem.
Labels are full printed on an Epson 880 using the Memorex software. I plan to use only the Memorex branded labels. I based my choice on what was written in this thread. Thanks guys. | ||||||
| johns0 posted 2003 Nov 01 22:03 | ||||||
| i dont know if anybody has stated this but the reason some label dont affect dvd playback is because the paper doesnt go to the hub where the mechanism clamps into the hole,with the extra paper there the dvd/cd looses proper traction | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Nov 02 02:27 | ||||||
| Wow, I disagree with that one. The regular with the large center holes caused problems for me as well. However, hub labels, which cover the center of my disks do not cause such problems for me. | ||||||
| divi2323 posted 2003 Nov 02 14:03 | ||||||
| It's like I said in my above post. The balance of the disc is what makes the difference. The discs spin at such high speeds that even a slight wobble will make the laser jump and skip tracks.
Buy high quality labels that are well balanced (indicated on the packaging usually) and you'll never have a problem again. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Nov 02 14:09 | ||||||
| Not even on a bet. I lost a video of my wife's shopping trip playing with those full labels. I learned my lesson. I will not pay higher tuition again for a life lesson I already learned. | ||||||
| bode posted 2003 Nov 02 15:23 | ||||||
| I think it is easy to conclude that using full sized labels will have problems and don't assume that if it works on your standalone, it will work on someone elses player.
I would not entirely trust the comments of a professional from a dvdr/ cdr company as he's just covering his ass. I'm sure Mr Neato/ Surething professional guy will have a convincing argument also, so everyone's input into this thread has been valuable. The inkjet printable disc isn't the golden pot at the end of the rainbow, a quick search on the forum will reveal that these too have problems, with tacky ink, smudging, non waterproofing and could you be annoyed spraying fixitive on your discs? For anyone in the UK, the hub/ core labels are not available at present, so look abroad, but they look professional I must admit and seem to minimize any problems, but feel free to continue the argument :wink: Thanks for the comical posts, a breath of fresh air :) | ||||||
| RabidDog posted 2003 Nov 03 08:10 | ||||||
:D
| ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2003 Nov 03 09:46 | ||||||
| Nope. Just still in love after 14 years of marriage. :wub: :inlove: :wub: :inlove: :wub: :inlove: | ||||||
| debanon posted 2003 Nov 11 07:25 | ||||||
| I've just started to burn dvd's and couldn't work out why they didn't play in the dvd player. I threw out many dvd burns because they were just useless to watch. I looked up your site and read about the labels causing a problem. I took the labels off the ones that I had left and what do ya know, they played perfectly. No pauses, skips or jumps. I put a label back on one and it wouldn't play again. Took it off and it played fine. I've decided I'm not going to label them anymore unless I can find a label system that works. | ||||||
| turk690 posted 2003 Nov 11 11:05 | ||||||
| Sticking labels on DVDs might not swanky to do, but it has its worth. I have experienced a lot of what others on this post have: unlabeled, the discs play perfectly; labeled, they stutter and pixelate in various degrees, and towards the outer portion of the disc, simply freeze. This is on a JVC XV-S62 set top. However, on a newly-bought Sony DVP-NS730P, ALL of my DVD-Rs, labeled and not, worked like a charm. So think of it: for those out to buy a new DVD player, this could be a criteria worth evaluating: will it properly play a correctly recorded sticky-labeled DVD-R? This is in addition to such criteria we are already on the lookout for, such as DVD-R, +R, -RW, & +RW playability, etc. This could coax manufacturers (and be a marketing tool for them as well) into making sure their set tops correctly and consistently play DVD-Rs with sticky labels. I see the progress here in that currently these companies strive to make set tops play DVD-R, etc. properly. I see no reason why they shouldn't strive to make these play WITH sticky labels just as well. | ||||||
| Work_Sucks posted 2003 Nov 12 07:52 | ||||||
| I had been labeling Legacy (Longten001) DVD -R 4X discs without problem, in some cases discs that skipped before labeling were fine after!!!!
I recently purchased some TDK DVD +R 4X discs that burnt and played great but as soon as I labeled them would not play at all or would skip badly on my Sanyo DVC 2600. All disks played in my computers DVD ROMs. I was using CD stomper PRO labels. As soon as I took these labels off the DVDs played great. Now to my findings, the weight of the Legacy media was 16 grams without a label, the weight of the TDK media was 18 grams without a label. With a fully printed label the weight of each disk was increased by 2 grams. To me it looks like the additional weight of the label is causing problems in some stand alone DVD players. I was also going to measure the thickness of the disks but could not find my micrometer so this could be a factor also. | ||||||
| antonsmit posted 2003 Nov 12 08:03 | ||||||
| If the label is not in the center of the disk it makes the disk of bellince and that is the reeson for the errors on the DVDR. | ||||||
| debanon posted 2003 Nov 13 06:12 | ||||||
| I don't agree that they only don't play because of the label not being centre. I have 2 types of label applicators, a cd stomper and a kensington cd labeler. They both can't possibly put the labels on off centre everytime. But I still have trouble no matter which one I use. I have started using dvd+r and so far I haven't had troubles with the labels on, but I'm not convinced yet as I've only burnt a couple. | ||||||
| Espen posted 2003 Nov 13 14:01 | ||||||
| Well dvd+r also have problems with labels, and it depend from media to media and player to player. I use to buy lots of differnet dvd+r and test them in a old sticky player my frieand have. Bets dvd+r for labeling i have found so far is neo premium dvd+r about 6/7 worked fine in his sticky player, however all labeld dvds worked in my two players.
I guees a new good player plays almost all dvd+r labeld or not, because they aren't that sensitive....... | ||||||
| siliconsoul posted 2003 Dec 17 14:20 | ||||||
has anyone tried labeling before burning and then see if it plays fine? also just appling a blank label before burning... | ||||||
| Byte Me posted 2003 Dec 21 10:41 | ||||||
| I've was warned off of using sticky labels on DVD's by Pioneer when we bought an S201 some years ago....never really knew why! Subsequently used lots of labels on CD's without any problems.
However, I just bought a new model Canon i865 ink jet because it came with a CD/DVD tray. It is great!!! Also has an adapter for mini cd's and business card cd's. It was about one tenth the cost of a professional Primera printer and takes just over 1 minute to print direct onto any printable disk. Also came with user friendly software for setting up your labels. For a few hundred bucks it solves any question of label screwups and no I don't work for Canon! :grrr: | ||||||
| hudsonf posted 2003 Dec 23 09:12 | ||||||
| I tried labeling my dvds one time and lost two dvds. Never thought of soaking them to see if I could get the labels off. I made a dvd with no problem then I applied the label, while I was labeling I decided to go ahead and label a blank. My dvd recorder would not recognize the blank dvd. I thought bad dvd but when I tried the dvd I just burnt it wouldn't recognize it either. Then I tried it in my stand alone and it wouldn't recognize it. That's the last time I labeled; I just use a Sharpie now. Funny thing is I never had a problem labeling vcd. | ||||||
| Sakuya posted 2004 Jan 07 14:18 | ||||||
| I don't have DVD-Rs but I do label my CD-Rs. In the past, I have made a lot of VCDs and added CD labels onto it. They had no problems and played fine. :D But recently, there is this one disc to which I have applied a label onto it. It started to pause here and there. Just a note, so far, there are 2 new CD-Rs that I have put labels on. One of them as mentioned above, pauses. The other one plays perfectly well. I wonder why that is? :( | ||||||
| MadCat posted 2004 Jan 11 02:23 | ||||||
| At first I did not think it was possible that the labels would mess up a DVD disc, as I could not see how it was possible. Well wouldn't you know it, I went to put a label on 2 of my Sony 4x DVD-R discs, and both of them started getting pixelated problems about half way through the disc, and refused to play around the 3/4 mark.
I removed the labels, and tried them again, and they worked perfectly, no pixelation, freezing, etc. The strange thing is, I use the same labels on my Maxell 4x media, and have never had a problem with them, it only happens on the Sony media I have. | ||||||
| johns0 posted 2004 Jan 11 02:38 | ||||||
| I have a theory why certain labels cause dv/dvd`s to cause problems,when the dvd/cd starts to get warm then it expands slightly and the label doesnt let it have any give causing the dvd/cd to warp slightly causing the problem,maybe other labels allow the cd/dvd to breath or flex when they heat up. | ||||||
| Sakuya posted 2004 Jan 11 21:27 | ||||||
| The CD labels I applied onto my CD-Rs are the paper kind. It is not glossy. Is there a way to remove it without damaging the disc? Or is there another way to copy the data on the disc to a blank CD-R and hopefully that copy won't have the glitches? :( | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Jan 12 01:46 | ||||||
| If its on a CD-r its very difficult to remove the label without destroying the data layer on the disc. If it can be read by your PC's CD rom try doing a simple disc copy. | ||||||
| Sakuya posted 2004 Jan 12 13:40 | ||||||
| When I try to copy the DAT file from the CD-R to my hard drive or to use VCDEasy to convert the DAT file to MPEG file and put it on my hard drive, it freezes half way. I should try playing it on my computer I guess... :( What if it has some video glitches? I already deleted the source MPEGs. | ||||||
| fritzi93 posted 2004 Jan 12 14:31 | ||||||
| Others more qualified can sort out why it happens, but I'm convinced labels CAN affect playback. I recently started labeling my DVDRs, and a few that played fine previously now stutter and eventually stop. These fall into two types:
1) CMC +Rs (yeah, some actually worked BEFORE labeling). 2) Any DVD burned before I installed the latest firmware for my writer. What the hell, I'll take a stab at it. Say your DVDR works fine but is not as perfect as you think, adding a label is the straw that breaks the camels back. Or rather, before labeling, your only slightly finicky player manages to play the dodgy disk. Afterwards it just barfs. :-x Think I'll start using core/hub labels. :wink: | ||||||
| Sakuya posted 2004 Jan 12 20:08 | ||||||
| I have a stash of CD labeling kits. :oops: One is from Neato and the other is the famed CD Stomper Pro. I noticed they both have the stomper/push-down thingy for applying CD labels that is perfectly aligned. On the back of the Neato box, it even says:
"No damaged discs, readback errors or peeling." The program I use to make my labels currently is from Globalstar Software and they DO NOT have a push-down thing. They only supply a circular block that you can insert into the hole in the middle of the jewel case and then you put your CD label through that block and onto the CD. :? It doesn't look too misaligned, the entire label is still on the CD-R and does not protrude off the edge. Does that really matter? :o | ||||||
| Sakuya posted 2004 Jan 12 22:42 | ||||||
| Would the paper-type labels peel off the CD over time or if enough heat is applied? :( And then when it peels off, would the CD work perfectly again? :roll: | ||||||
| Muffyn posted 2004 Jan 15 13:33 | ||||||
| ok
so HOW do you label disks that have no original paper label on them to write on??? | ||||||
| Sakuya posted 2004 Jan 15 21:16 | ||||||
| There are software often titled "CD/DVD Labeling Kits" at your computer store near you. But it would be best if you searched on the net and read some reviews on the product before buying it. :| | ||||||
| intelliQ posted 2004 Jan 15 22:15 | ||||||
| Never had a problem, using:
NEC ND1300 A, each firmware update up to 1.08 Meritline Matte CD/ DVD labels Ritek G03, G04, Prime 1x and Prime 4x - all from Meritline too. Lexmark X1150 and Lexmark Z45 I used to make full color labels on all of my backed up movies (about 200+.....kids do not mix well with original discs) , but it seemed like a waste of ink, so I just do white labels with the movie title in black. Oh, by the way, for those of you who have lexmarks, walmart has a knock-off brand of replacment cartridges for $18 each black and color. Called NuKote. Although Walmart's website only shows the black ink, they carry color too, at least the store by my house does ..... [url]http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product_listing.gsp?cat=123414&path=0%3A3944%3A3951%3A37807%3A63424%3A123414 [/url] | ||||||
| jakol posted 2004 Jan 15 23:45 | ||||||
| im newer than a newbie, i just wanna make an input, maybe im wrong, my theory is that dvd-r's are really prone to read errors when using sticky labels than cdr's coz, dvd-r have smaller laser tracks than cdr which makes it harder for the laser to focus in case of unbalance disk caused by this label...i have no problem with the labels with my sony player though, even sometimes i accidentally stick it off center, its different story though if i use my cheap player, so probably its a player issue too. | ||||||
| jakol posted 2004 Jan 15 23:50 | ||||||
| sorry i only read the first page of this thread didn't noticed its 7 pages..pls disregard my above post, probably it was mentioned already.... | ||||||
| dxj40c posted 2004 Jan 20 07:10 | ||||||
| There may something to this. I also have labeled movies that freeze-up, sound drops out, etc. I have been using the same brand media.
They only do this on a stand-alone, on the computer they play fine. Perhaps it is the architecture of the player(s). I have determined that the 'errors' occur at chapter break points, so I had assumed that the problem was authoring, but the fact it plays perfect on the computer has killed that theory. Maybe it's the label. That's the only thing I haven't considered. If you are only having problems only at the end of a movie, check the edge of the blank discs, I see lots of flaws on mine about 1/4 " in from the edge, this may be causing the problem. I try to avoid recording to the edge. I can't wait to try some tests. Thanks for mentioning this. | ||||||
| Quake2Player posted 2004 Feb 02 13:03 | ||||||
| Very helpful thread... thank you all!!! Now my question and forgive me if this has already been answered...
What if I buy the media with the printable white surface and stick one of those Brother P-Touch labels on my media... it'd be a small label with only the Title of the movie, NOT a full disk label. Is this the safest way of labeling besides my sloppy handwriting with a permanent marker? | ||||||
| Rookie64 posted 2004 Feb 06 19:12 | ||||||
http://www.surething.com/ST/Product.asp?ProdCode=20006 http://www.rima.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_C ... _Code=2740 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2004/ces/fs_lightscribe.pdf Or use no label at all on the disk and just label the DVD case - that's the safest you can get :wink: I'd stay away from sticky labels 'cause not all DVD players can read through them And Inkjet prints can peel or rub off due to heat...which can screw up your player bigtime. Though it depends on how much ink you're using or how fancy your labels are. Really, the important thing is what's on the disk, and if it's important enough to you, don't go overboard with labels - you really don't need any on the disk itself. Even major studios don't use them all the time. | ||||||
| tester posted 2004 Feb 06 22:35 | ||||||
| When I first started backing up my dvds, I also had a problem with the labels. I have tried all types of blank dvd brands (Memorex, TDK, GQ and K Hypermedia). Every single dvd would freeze after I applied the dvd labels, some at the beginning, but most stop playing in the middle of the movie . Then I tried Ritek G04 DVD-R and the all worked great with the labels. So I would suggest trying to use the Ritek brand. If I have to make an educated guess, I would say it has something to do with the weight of the dvd after the label is applied. | ||||||
| bszarek001 posted 2004 Feb 11 15:54 | ||||||
| I have only been burning DVD's since Christmas , and I have labeled just about every single one of them with full coverage stickers. The only problems I have ever had with the discs is when I burned them incorrectly. Since I learned what to do, I haven't had a problem. I use Memorex, TDK and Imation. My question is this... do they negatively effect the long term use of the disc, or if I keep the face of the disc clean, will it be ok? Thanks
-Brian | ||||||
| Espen posted 2004 Feb 12 06:46 | ||||||
Well, I guees it's hard to say what will happend to the labeld dvds 5 years from now. Some peopel say that the glue will stop working and the label will come of, just speculation and I doubt it. However I used cheap crap labels for my cd:s a few years ago and the labels of those discs has got air bubbles today. I have labeld dvds for over a year and use more expensive labels for those and they seems to be find today, so don't buy those cheap crap labels, because then you might run into troubel in the future....... | ||||||
| npaulie2000 posted 2004 Feb 12 18:22 | ||||||
| If you want a good labeling system, buy a black magic marker. | ||||||
| bszarek001 posted 2004 Feb 13 07:37 | ||||||
| haha.. Yeah, that does work pretty well, but I can't complain too much. I was using the Memorex labels for a while, but then I found some glossy full-face labels on ebay (200 labels for $20). They work perfectly and look nice too. Until I have a problem, I think i'll continue to use them. :D
-Brian | ||||||
| J3M posted 2004 Feb 16 10:41 | ||||||
| Very interesting thread.
This past weekend I purchased the Fellows Neato CD/DVD Label Kit. I'm using TDK 2x (G02) DVD-R media. I applied three full color labels and had zero problems with the discs once labeled. They look much better than a Sharpie, that's for sure! IMHO, if the label is centered properly I wouldn't think it would cause much trouble. With the kit above, it's next to impossible to not center the label correctly. Anyway, as with most things PC based, your experience may vary. | ||||||
| drewson99 posted 2004 Feb 16 12:27 | ||||||
| I have labeled 1000+ DVDs with the neato brand labels and an HP stomper (not even a neato one) and have never had probs (and I would have heard about it as they were for customers)
A | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Feb 16 12:32 | ||||||
| Yes, thousands of wildebbests have drank at this water hole and not be eaten by alligators... :lol: | ||||||
| warmagain posted 2004 Feb 16 17:39 | ||||||
| I have noticed for no matter what kind of media I use . They play fine before labeling them but after they have problems with skipping, freezing etc. I use a sharpe marker only, since then no problems | ||||||
| Dr.Gee posted 2004 Feb 17 11:16 | ||||||
| I was thinking about how some commercial dvds are labeled with a fairly heavy paint coat which is often asymetrical. It would seem that these would be more unbalanced than a slightly off-center paper label. Any thoughts?
Also, an earlier post suggested applying the label before burning. Has anyone tried this? :idea: | ||||||
| bszarek001 posted 2004 Feb 17 11:20 | ||||||
| I have always been hesitant to do that, but I'm not exactly sure why. I don't think it really matters either way. Although, the sticker may alter somewhat the way the laser burns the data into the media by changing the way it reflects the light. I'm not sure, and I may be speaking out of my you know what, but I have never had a problem with the labels. Is it possible that the people that have problems with labeled dvd media are using very cheap dvd players?
-Brian | ||||||
| TerryG posted 2004 Feb 17 11:35 | ||||||
| I had a problem and stopped using labels. I think the problem may be related to the extra weight of the label and individual DVD players not being able to maintain the correct speed. | ||||||
| DTSL06 posted 2004 Feb 17 11:49 | ||||||
I actually double label a disc last nite and it still played fine. 1st one was printed off center so I applied a 2nd label over top and reprinted and surprise it played fine. I found that this works best for me 1. burn disk 2. apply label to disk 3. print labeled disk | ||||||
| Dreamvictim posted 2004 Feb 18 16:50 | ||||||
| I've been labeling my DVD-R's with Regular Photo quality matte Neato 2up labels on various media and not had any problems, when I changed my labels to a cheap full face brand all discs had playback problems and then worked fine once removed..
Thought I'd mention this as I've heard quite a few people saying they've had no problems with these particular neato labels.. | ||||||
| bottle-necked posted 2004 Feb 19 22:33 | ||||||
I don't label all my disks but I have several of them and only 1 messed up because I didn't get the label centered.... my fault. All the others has never gave any play or read problems. <<<knock on wood>>>
I did this a few times and without any problems. | ||||||
| eonsign posted 2004 Feb 20 00:38 | ||||||
When I got my LG 2x Burner last year, I started putting Stomper labels on my Ritek 1x and had no issues playing these discs on my 5 year old Pioneer DV-525. However, they would always stutter and stop on my newer (but cheaper) Electrohome 8181. I've since changed to labeling with a Brother PT-85 (9mm tapes) and have had no problems with either machine since. You take your chances with DVD labels but the thermal tape solution is a less expensive and effective solution. | ||||||
| kaphine posted 2004 Feb 21 20:09 | ||||||
| Well up until today, I thought labeling had no effects on the dvd-r disc. I have many dvd+r and dvd-r with labels and all of them plays fine on my standalone dvd player (80+ discs with labels on Pioneer 260, this baby plays everything!). I've used TDK, Memorex, Verbatim etc.
Just couple days ago, I put labels on 8 dvd-r disc (Prino discs, I know they sux) and now every one of them either skip, pixelate or don't play at all. But of those 8 discs played perfectly before I put the label. Only speaking from my personal experience, labeling your disc can screw up the disc, at least on cheap crappy media (Princo). So until I can get Epson R300 or R200 printer, Sharpie will do for now :) | ||||||
| bszarek001 posted 2004 Feb 23 07:37 | ||||||
| It must definately have something to do with the media then.. I have been using Imation, TDK and Memorex +/- r with labels and they have all worked fine with no problem.
-Brian | ||||||
| kaphine posted 2004 Feb 23 19:03 | ||||||
| Yesterday, I carefully removed all the labels from the 8 princo discs that had problems after I put the labels on and guess what? They all play fine now :lol: Definitely no labeling on princo media but memerex, TDK, verbatim all works fine :) | ||||||
| ricky1756 posted 2004 Feb 23 19:11 | ||||||
| i had the same problem with labels, but i thought it was bad media. i tried to re-rip them with dvddecryter. it would start out working fine, but would quit reading after a while. if i let it sit for a few minutes then it would read fine again. this tells me that the labels are causing the dvd to overheat. | ||||||
| Dr.Gee posted 2004 Feb 24 15:45 | ||||||
For those in the position of having to remove labels,why not try some aerosol sealant used for the printable discs. This would probably seal the residual glue. Has any one tried this? | ||||||
| ricky1756 posted 2004 Feb 24 17:37 | ||||||
| i used alcohol to get the labels off, alcohol doesnt react with plastic, thats why they sell it in plastic bottles, and it took the label and glue off after a couple minutes soaking. make sure you don't use rubbing alcohol which contains emollients that can leave a residue | ||||||
| elfdez posted 2004 Feb 24 19:57 | ||||||
| I use Zippo lighter fluid, works perfect, no damage to disc, just put plenty on disc and start removing the edges first and putting more on the unglued part, most of the time you would be able to remove the whole label without braking it, then use a clean cloth or towel to remove the rest.
Ive been having problems with all the labels with certain players, so I don't labels DVDs any more I print them with my Epson 900. Haven't had any problems yet with labeled CDs | ||||||
| Gabo posted 2004 Feb 26 20:24 | ||||||
| WOW I think I was the only with this problem, I have a Sony dvd player and have the same problem with the labels ( Mate normal paper label ) with Princo DVD-r media, sometimes I get excelent movies without any problems and sometime get ones with problem until I removed the Label. I always think when I get problems that the disk is hot, but not sure in this topic, another idea I had is that the label was too thick. | ||||||
| Cannonball888 posted 2004 Feb 26 20:46 | ||||||
| I never had a problem with regular disc labels, but before that I was using plain printer paper and a gluestick and I could hear the labels flapping around in the player's drive. | ||||||
| Kolosus posted 2004 Feb 26 20:50 | ||||||
I watched a girl behind the counter in Movie Gallery recently who didn't quite get the label centered correctly. So she ripped the label back off along with a good portion of the coating on the disc. Slightly off topic, but my point is that the video store employees were applying these labels by hand. No wonder there are bubbles under the label and they're off centered. | ||||||
| Dr.Gee posted 2004 Feb 26 21:09 | ||||||
| Sorry. Maybe I posted in the wrong forum. Please advise.
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=208419 | ||||||
| indolikaa posted 2004 Feb 26 21:53 | ||||||
Which is worse? Admitting you actually used CMC media, or claiming that it actually worked? :lol: :P :lol: | ||||||
| DVDguru posted 2004 Mar 02 22:07 | ||||||
| Hopefully this will clear up the question of do labels cause a DVD to skip. The answer is YES. I have burned 500+ DVD's all with Avery matte white lables on Verbatim Data Life Plus -R. 99% of these play in my Panasonic home DVD players. (Panasonic DVD's in my opinion are the best players to play DVD+-R disks) I experienced some skipping with my toshiba. I went out to purchase a portable DVD player so that I could enjoy my DVD's on the road. First portable purchase Cyberhome 7", none of my disks would play. I then tried Toshiba 7", same thing. Tried Sony, Mintek, Panasonic, and a no name from Circuit City. I was determined to find a portable that would play my DVD's. I found the portable panasonics the best overall, as these players hung in quite awhile before skipping. I could not understand why my DVD's played at home but not on a portable. They also would not play in a laptop computer. After burning a new disk and before I used a label, I tried it in the Mintek portable. It played, I then thought it must be the labels. To prove my theory I removed the labels from my worst skipping DVD's that would not play. All of them played start to finish in the portable and laptop computer. I found an easy way to remove old labels. Get Goof OFF, the yellow bottel that smells like oranges or lemons. Squirt the DVD label and spread the Goof Off evenly over the top disk. Let the disk set for about 10 minutes(no more than 30), the label will peel up and leave very little glue. After removing the label apply a little Goof Off to a clean cloth and wipe the disk. Now use a warm sponge with soap/water and wipe the dvd. Dry with another clean cloth. Hope this helps those who are wondering why some play and some don't. If you only play the DVD's at home in a stand alone, then I would say Label at your risk, if you plan to go portable Good Luck, and I hope you :idea: bought the extended warranty you will need it. | ||||||
| ozstar100 posted 2004 Mar 06 01:10 | ||||||
| I have used labels on literally thousands of CDs without one problem. I use the Pressit gadget and have used many labels from el cheapo to Neato, Officeworks etc. I like the Neato Matte ones better as they are really white and give a better finish, however that is just my taste, not for any mechanical reason.
On my DVDs I have used labels on about 150 and only about 6 have been returned. Could be the label, could be the actual disc (white top Princo) or the type of player as they are all different players. I am not sure and am trying to establish what it is. I have printed my labels but now get them commercially printed at Kwik Kopy. Solid Ink and glossy.. Look professional. The discs are burnt at 4x with DVD Workshop1.3 and take up 3.8MB. | ||||||
| bearfx posted 2004 Mar 08 23:15 | ||||||
| All of my DVD's include an .md5 file to verify the contents of the disk. Today, I took a DVD I burned and labelled with a surething label in December of 2002 and verified the files on the disc (The DVD contained 8 CD .iso files). All files tested OK.
I have always labelled my CD's and DVD's, and have never experienced a problem that could be traced to a label. (I dod experience some problems when I first started burning CD's, but these stopped when I learned that "Great Quality" media ( or whatever the comparable brand was in '97) is anything but great quality. just my $0.02 | ||||||
| ozstar100 posted 2004 Mar 08 23:36 | ||||||
| How does one get this md5 program?
Once it does make sure the disc reads fine, it still does not mean that it will play on 'every' DVD player out there does it? That's my problem, whilst 95% of my Princo's play fine I wanted to know how I can make sure that the returns 'will' play. I burn TDK TYG01 x4 for these returns as they are supposed to be more compatable. Still waiting on the outcome tho'. Oz | ||||||
| bearfx posted 2004 Mar 11 23:29 | ||||||
| You can get an MD5 program for windows at http://www.md5summer.com/
Every linux distro includes md5 already. No, an md5 program only verifies that the files on the disc are read as identical in the DVD-ROM you are using. In this case, however, I am merely stating that labeling my DVD's did not negatively impact the data stored on the disc. md5 provides a great way to verify the integrity of your data. | ||||||
| Vast posted 2004 Mar 13 15:56 | ||||||
| Correction To This Post...
No matter what I do, Sticky Labels not only mess up the playback, but they also make it nearly impossible for me to duplicate them once they have a label on them. And as Craig says below, it seems that even with good media it sucks. This sucks. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Mar 13 18:36 | ||||||
| I just recently started using ritek DVD's after using some crappy media in the past and thought the same as you. I just tested this today, burnt a DVD pretty much to full capacity and put a label on it. Put it in my DVD player and it was pixellating and getting all messed up on the menu before even playing the main content of the disc. Removed the label with warm soapy water and the problem is gone. This is the absolute very last time I will apply a sticky label to a DVD. Am awaiting delivery of my Epson R200. | ||||||
| Vast posted 2004 Mar 14 09:44 | ||||||
Hey Craig, are you sure the Epson R200 is ok? I went to their website and noticed the little astrick at the bottom saying
| ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Mar 14 13:05 | ||||||
| Yes you need inkjet pritable media, otherwise the ink will just smear. Some are white top but not necessarily inkjet printable, you need to get the ones that are specifically inkjet printable. | ||||||
| Vast posted 2004 Mar 14 13:28 | ||||||
| Very disappointing I have to admit. To print labels on my DVD's I not only have to buy a 300 dollar printer, but also special media. *sigh*
I do want to thank you for the Soap & Hot Water idea. It took me about 10 minutes of soaking them but the labels eventually came off. If anyone comes up with an alternative solution, like perhaps some kinda special labels that don't mess them up, I'd appreciate if you post. I personally was beaming with pride at how good my labeled DVD's looked and dispondancy set in when I tried to get any of my DVD software to recognize it afterwards. :cry: Thanks | ||||||
| davelab posted 2004 Mar 15 06:19 | ||||||
Interesting thread! A friend of mine burned family stills(JPEG) on 5 discs and sent them to family members. They were all OK for about a year and then everyone could no longer see the pictures or access the cd-r. I have noticed some of the other threads talk about balance and that seem logical, however when I first got into burning cd's I can remember when cheap media was a big issue. The compatibility between drives was enough to drive you crazy and the manufactures of the drives would only qualify the drive with some vendors. I just wonder if DVD has the same problem right now and the difference in media and lack of standardization is a problem??? | ||||||
| Vast posted 2004 Mar 15 19:18 | ||||||
Just another update. I decided to try some different labels, and a friend had some spare Neato labels. So I tried and sure enough, they worked perfectly. I wrote Neato an E-Mail asking them the why and how behind it and this was their responce.
I just ordered 300 Neato Labels. After I burn about a hundred or so, I'll get back to this thread again. Oh and BTW... I found it interesting that in this they mention the water based adhesive. On the cheapy labels I was using I noticed that the glue that was holding the labels down was so thick that I couldn't get it off even with strubbing vigerously (Never got them clean, and even without the paper portion of the label it still didn't work) This indicates that the problem may indeed be the problem, or at least a large portion of the problem. | ||||||
| ttyner posted 2004 Mar 15 19:41 | ||||||
| The definitive word on this subject can be found at the National Institute of
Standards and Technology web site. http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/index.html I have stopped using labels because I have had a few (very few adnittedly) problems losing data. Some data was not recoverable at all. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Mar 16 01:59 | ||||||
Sorry but I have never read such a pile of crap in all my life. Adhesive harming the data layer on a DVD - yea right. The data layer on a DVD is sandwiched between 0.6mm polycarbonate plates, it is more than adequately protected from any adhesive you care to use. I am glad that Neato labels work for you but it is certainly not because of the reason that they give. If the data layer was being damaged by the labels adhesive (which is impossible) The disc would still be damaged after removing the label, which it obviously is not. | ||||||
| Jraf posted 2004 Mar 16 04:20 | ||||||
| It's only a mechanical problem.
When the label dessicates with the heat of the reader, it retracts itself and pulls the external edge of the disc, so it is no more in the same plan than the middle. The laser beam is no more perpendicular to the disc and there are read errors. Just put your labelled disc on a plane surface, label on the surface and you'll see the centre is higher than the external edge of the disc ; you can push the center until it touches the plane surface. We need to find labels that do not retract with the heat and therefore do not bulger or camber the disc (sorry, not english speaking). I didn't find any, so I don't label my discs anymore. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Mar 22 03:38 | ||||||
| Well I found my answer, the Epson R200 printer. Absolutely awesome looking prints directly to the disc. :D | ||||||
| tester posted 2004 Mar 23 22:31 | ||||||
| I would suggest trying to recording the DVD at 1X. It will work great with or without the labels. Recording one at 1X and put the labels on, it will work great. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Mar 24 01:55 | ||||||
| ||||||
| fangstar posted 2004 Mar 24 07:43 | ||||||
| I have done alot of backups....all with labels.....No problems so far.
I believe it depends on the quality of the label. I use Neato Feloowes Matte lables, and they are thick so the ink doesn't go on the disc. If you use cheap labels the story could be different. | ||||||
| Gritz posted 2004 Mar 24 08:31 | ||||||
| I finally quit doing paper DVD labels because of the problems with playback ... ALWAYS at 4 GB and above! Probably one out of three would fail with pixelation, lockup and/or jerkiness! Since the first portion of each disk always played fine I just assumed it might have something to do with being out of balance ... like a car tire wobbling. But, that's just an idea. My labels were applied perfectly as far as I could tell, they looked great ... even beautiful ... so much better than a sharpee! I tried different brands ... but my testing here may not have been extensive enough because I tried to use up what I had first. Princo and Optodisk disk seemed to be the worst .... so I'm thinking the quality of the disks (especially at the outer edge) has something to do with it also. In any case .... I can't watch each backup all the way through, nor did I want to run up near the end and try to check the possible areas ... so I just quit using the paper labels. My next project will be with printable DVDs ... and we'll see. | ||||||
| VinnySem posted 2004 Mar 24 09:09 | ||||||
| I have had excellent results with the No-Wobble labels that Americal sells. I have alot of backups that I labelled, and they all play fine without any skipping. The labels look real good too, somewhat translucent, and on Ritek silver matte top disks they have a real cool metallic flake effect. | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Apr 13 23:00 | ||||||
| Craig,
Thank you for starting this topic and for, ahem, sticking with it. Would you be willing to put together a summary of the issues and conclusions regarding sticky labels? Let me explain why I'm asking. Over the past year I've made over a thousand DVD+R discs for paying customers. Every single one of those discs has had a sticky label (Memorex labels at first, then switching to Neato about 9 months ago). I do testing myself, and nothing leaves my studio which does not play. I'm also pretty confident that customers would be sounding alarms if their discs were not playable. I heard no such alarms until a couple of months ago. The first time a customer reported problems with their discs pixellating and stalling, I attributed it to media issues. The problem went away and I didn't think twice about it. The second customer was more persistent, and her order was more stubborn: each set of discs I made for her had the same exact problem across several players in her family. That's when I checked some discs I had made for family and friends and found that they too were no longer playable. Following advice I found here, I have begun removing the sticky labels on the discs which do not work, and they all have come back to life and now play perfectly. (It's actually a relief because now I know what to do if any other customers come forward.) This has convinced me that the sticky labels are to blame for these problems. But I must hasten to point out that actual problems are still limited to a very small minority of the discs I make. Within one order recently, for example, I had discs that worked perfectly, discs that worked at first but went bad after some time had passed, and discs that were bad from the start. I've had discs that showed errors immediately on playback and others that break up only later in the program. This makes me wonder if my technique for applying the labels may be partially to blame, or if the quality of the label batch makes the difference, or even the distribution of ink on the label. The general impression I get is that all sticky labels are bad, and yet I've had a large measure of success with them. So I'm interested in figuring out what about them causes the data read problems, and if there are controllable parameters which can increase the likelihood of success when applying them. I should add that I've already made the decision to switch to printable media, but have read (on Amazon.com customer reviews) that the same problems can occur there. That leads me to my original question, which is actually several questions: 1. Why is data not read properly when a label is attached? a. Imbalance (disc wobble or inconsistent speed) b. Bowing (incorrect laser angle) c. Degradation of the data layer (reflective surface corrupted) 2. Which of these potential problems is the actual culprit? a. Air bubbles (poor attachment) b. Ink distribution (label design) c. Heat (player and storage condition variables) d. Small imperfections in label placement 3. Do certain label types resist these problems better than others? 4. Do certain media brands resist these problems better than others? 5. Does the type of adhesive matter? 6. Does label thickness make a difference? I read the NIST report linked above, but it gave little indication of why sticky labels are bad, just that they are. I'd love to tap your expertise and hear what conclusions you have drawn based on the responses to this topic. Thanks! Rick + | ||||||
| ozstar100 posted 2004 Apr 13 23:31 | ||||||
| This is a very good report and worthy of everybody's in depth research results.
It is really a bad scene when there are so many variables causing havoc for those who burn and those who buy. I, like many have read about this problem until I'm bonkers, yet still do not have definitive answers. There 'must' be answers somewhere and I am amazed that manufacturers of media do not come forward with their research, if indeed they do any! I am not sure how we can answer some of the more technical questions, altho' I am sure there are some techies out there who can give us good answers. Let's hope we can get good productive responses.. Thanks and good luck :D | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Apr 14 02:30 | ||||||
| For reference, here is the section in the NIST report regarding adhesive labels. It's found on page 23 of the report.
5.2.7 Application of Adhesive Labels Adhesive labels should not be applied to optical discs destined for long-term storage (more than five years). The label could delaminate over time and interfere with disc drive operation. The adhesive in some earlier labels has also been known to react with the lacquer surface. Any attempts to peel the label off could cause damage to the lacquer and metal layers in CDs. DVDs are different; peeling a label off a DVD would not have the same adverse affect because the metal layer is not near the surface. Still, removing a label, or any portion thereof, from the surface of a disc can cause an imbalance in the spin of the disc in the disc drive, making the disc unreadable. DVDs are more susceptible to reading problems from minor imbalances than are CDs. To ensure the long-term availability of information on a disc that already has an adhesive label, the information on the disc should be copied to, and stored on, a disc without such a label. Adhesive labels may be well suited for short-term disc usage (less than five years), and can even add a layer of protection from scratches and other potentially harmful contact. On the other hand, such labels are vulnerable to adverse environmental conditions: they can dry out or absorb moisture, and they can be affected by heat or cold even more than the disc itself. Such conditions may cause the label to delaminate. Disc manufacturers advise against using adhesive labels because they can create unbalanced disc spin, resulting in premature wear of the drive. If a label is used, it should be manufactured for use on CDs or DVDs, and an appropriate disc label applicator tool should be used to affix the label. The label applicator tool should center the label on the disc so as to maintain the disc balance as much as possible. Frankly, I find some of these conclusions vague and unhelpful based on my own experiences. For example, archivists may care about delamination of labels, but all of my experiences have been with labels which are freshly attached. Also, since I am using a device which perfectly centers the label, placement is not the issue. And since the errors show up immediately in some cases, it's unlikely that temperature or humidity changes are the real issue. Further -- and most curiously -- on DVD+R discs which are having read errors, I have taken to removing as much of the label as possible, but found that removing the entire adhesive layer is very difficult. Still, I was surprised to discover that as long as the complete paper layer is removed, the discs will read perfectly. This is the case even with a large amount of the sticky stuff left in place -- and decidedly unbalanced. By all rights, if wobble is the real concern, leaving splotches of unbalanced adhesive should be fatal, but this has not been the case on any of the discs I have reclaimed. Just some further food for thought. Rick + | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Apr 14 03:52 | ||||||
| I don't think there is a definitive answer as to why sticky labels can cause playback problems, and under what exact conditions these problems can occur. It seems to be a combination of the media used, the type of label applied and how sensitive the DVD player is.
There are several theories as to what causes discs with labels applied to skip and pixelate. I will list the ones I can remember, please add any I have missed. 1. The adhesive on the label corrupts the data layer on the disc. This IMHO is the most far fetched and fantastical reason. There is no way that the labels adhesive could penetrate 0.6mm of polycarbonate and interfere with the data layer. (We are talking about DVDR's here not CDR's, their construction is totally different). 2. The distribution of ink on the label can cause an imbalance. Again I think this is clutching at straws, the mass involved is so miniscule I cannot see how it would affect the balance of the disc. 3. The label causes an imbalance of the disc and causes it to wobble, effecting playback. Possible if applied off centre, but if applied correctly with a stomper, I see no reason why it should be out of balance. 4. The label starts to delaminate and you get air pockets between the label and disc causing an imbalance. This is quite possible, but playback issues are reported with discs with no such air pockets between the disc and label, so this cannot be the only factor. 5. The label absorbs and retains heat from the laser, causing the disc to heat up beyond its normal operating temperature and hence causing playback issues. Possible, as it does seem to be the thicker paper labels which cause the most problems. I have seen very few (if any) complaints about the thin glossy labels causing playback problems. 6. The paper label has a different coefficient of expansion to that of the DVD, so the heating by the laser causes the DVD to "dish" as the Polycarbonate and paper expand at different rates. This would mean that the data layer would be at an angle to the laser and the error would be magnified the closer you got to the edge of the disc. I think if I had to put my money on any of these reasons, it would either 5 or 6. And to remove sticky labels from DVD's warm soapy water works very well. I recently retested some labels with some matte silver Ritek G04's. Burned my disc to full capacity and played it with no label - played perfectly. Applied a fully printed label centred with an aplicator - immediate playback problems. Removed label with warm soapy water - perfect playback once again. I would also add that I have recently purchase an Epson R200 which I have been using with Ritek G04 printable discs. The results are fantastic and I have had zero problems thus far. For those that really want a professional looking end product and for it to still play flawlessly, I would highly reccomend this option. | ||||||
| ironwood321 posted 2004 Apr 14 04:47 | ||||||
| Have you tried using Avery labels. http://www.avery.com/ These are slightly thicker than the standard label last longer i.e. I have no peeling effect and seem to work fine for me.
I have used both the colour inkjet glossy and mono laser labels I used them with no problem on Nanya and Ritek brand disk and experience so far no problems. Perhaps on the thinner labels the die from the print somehow leeches through to the disk surface. This will be more apparent on disk brands which don't have a printed pattern on them and you can see all or part of the silver/gold disk back. Perhaps the problem related to brand of writer. I noticed that sony writers burn tracks stronger than pioneer drives on the same medium. This is apparent when you continue sessions in different makes of drive. | ||||||
| ozstar100 posted 2004 Apr 14 22:12 | ||||||
| This interesting..
Anyone else know about this. If the burn is stronger with some burners then maybe the laser in some players is weaker than others.. thus a no read or part read situation! Mmmm a thought!
Thanks Craig | ||||||
| pmaizitis posted 2004 Apr 17 08:42 | ||||||
| I would also be curious about player compatibility. Perhaps adding this to the DVD reviews? All the following comments are related to DVD + and - R. Brand name media like Verbatim, Fuji and Memorex burned on Sony 500U. For starters:
:evil: Malata DVD N996 Multi Region Code Free - very sensitive to DVD labels both paper and clear/gloss ... typically halfway through the DVD will pixelate and freeze. (I still like the clear progressive scan picture and PAL converstion of this unit though which is why I am still fighting the label issue) :roll: Panasonic LV-70 - label friendly both paper and gloss. :roll: Phillips DVD580MT01 Vertical DVD - label friendly both paper and gloss. :roll: Magnavox MDV630R DVD Recorder - label friendly, both paper and gloss. __________________________________________________________ Conversation with Avery on paper DVD label problems - they forwarded my complaint to their tech department and I never heard back. :evil: Conversation with CD Stomper on paper DVD label problems - its the media and not their label (give me a break :-x )! NOT! They would not acknowledge that I had stated repeatedly that the DVD+R would play fine before I affixed the label. Kind of like false advertising and misleading the public! :evil: ____________________________________________________________ The foil label idea sounds feasible and I think should be reviewed more. :shock: | ||||||
| VideoTechMan posted 2004 Apr 17 09:52 | ||||||
| So here's my question: What method do the commercial DVD's use for their labels? In light of this topic I looked over some of the commercial DVD's I have, and none of them have the paper-type labels on them. You think they may know that paper can be a problem too? Besides, to just write on the DVD-R with just a marker just doesnt have that professional look...it has the more basic kind of label. If thermal printers are a viable option could be worth looking into.
VTM | ||||||
| SammyTBull posted 2004 Apr 18 09:56 | ||||||
| I've never seen those "metallic" labels anywhere in here, but I've looked for them in a few online stores, and they're only for laser printers - booo!
I've labeled a whole bunch of CDRs and DVDRs with paper labels, though - mostly Neato's glossy ones, since the matte ones look and feel like vomit - and I've never had any problems with any of them. It depends on the player, I suppose, though I played them flawlessly on about 7 different DVD & CD systems. The one player that did choke on some was an Aiwa system, but that one simply had problems with playing many writable discs, so the label issue must have been irrelevant. | ||||||
| pmaizitis posted 2004 Apr 21 06:48 | ||||||
| :D
I have just tested the Sony DVP-NS575P progressive scan DVD player and it appears to be label friendly - both paper and clear labels. No pixelation or lockup. However there does not appear to be a region free hack for this unit. :cry: Foil labels are available at Staples on-line. Good color laser printer for these is the Minolta 2300. :| | ||||||
| thebishop72 posted 2004 Apr 22 15:46 | ||||||
| WOW. I want to thank everyone here for their hard work on this topic. Ive been making backups for a few weeks now and couldnt for the worth of me figure out why some discs froze near the end of the movie. As Im sure we've all experienced, a rather annoying occurrance! Especially with a couch full of friends and family watching! Ive been trashing dvdr's like they're going out of style thinking it was something to do with the burning process and all along, it was the pretty labels Ive been applying!! I mean, they look great, but if this indeed is the problem, then Im never labelling another dvd!
PS Does it even happen with those $30 applicators? Man this sucks! I had some really cool custom labels....ah well. Thanks again everyone! :D | ||||||
| lchiu7 posted 2004 Apr 22 18:44 | ||||||
| I found this thread very interesting. Before I was aware of the problem I picked up a cheap labelling kit from Kensington for CD's. Using Nero cover designer I was able to make quite nice labels and paste them on my DVD's. Then my kids told me when they were watching some titles picture would freeze, pixellate etc. I had no idea of the problem until I encountered this thread. But after some some experiementation I am no wiser to the answer to the problem because
1. Digital Matrix DVD+R 4X burn fine on my Sony DRU500A but (and I had never checked this before ) not reliably read on my Skyworth 1050P (which is the unit the kids were watching on) so not sure the label made any difference. Those discs with labels work fine on my el cheap Auriga DVD player also but don't read on my Sony DVD ROM drive (with or without labels) 2. Princo 1x DVD-RW burn fine on the Sony (albeit rather slow) and work on all machines with or without labels 3. Ricoh 2.4X DVD+RW read fine on all machines with or without labels If labels are indeed a problem (weight balance atc.) then I wonder why I can read/play all the rental discs I get which have the security strips on them and a plastic sheet over the label I am sure the weight of label makes a difference but there seem to be other factors also I just ordered a 100 Ritek DVD-R 4X printable and will probably get a R200 to be safe though | ||||||
| DTSL06 posted 2004 Apr 22 19:19 | ||||||
| Apply labels this way and see if u have probms. 1st u'll need a cd/dvd capable printer (I use a Epson 900). Burn disk with ur flavor of choice. Apply label...THEN print. This elimates bubbles and the hassle of trying to apply ink loaded labels. I been doing this and have no probm's. Its worth a try if u like paper labels. I jsut dont like the printable disks since they are easily smeared. I had some return cause of smearing. Over coat was an added step I had to use with the printable disks. Just wasnt worth it after doing ~100+ that way. Went back to using paper labels (Neato's work the best for me). | ||||||
| pmaizitis posted 2004 Apr 23 14:52 | ||||||
| :roll:
I would be curious which players are not having problems. We have several of the new players and neither paper nor clear labels are a problem. No problems playing labels printed with Epson ink jet or Minolta color laser. The newer machines that we tested appear to be more robust ad mature in their designs and stable handling of all types of DVDs as well as VCDs and SVCDs WITH LABELS. Someone please acknowledge. As stated before it might be a good idea to start including label capability on new players tested and logged on this site. Suggest that before you go out and buy a CD/DVD printer you check on a new DVD player like Panasonic, Sony or Philips, as listed in my prior post. Those I listed are label friendly. | ||||||
| dxj40c posted 2004 Apr 29 07:37 | ||||||
| I label everything, CD and DVD, and have never had problems. Pixelation at the edge of the disk is most likely not the label. I call the area 1/4" from the edge 'no man's land' and avoid it. If you hold most disks just right you can see the edge area is sometimes kind of funky looking (uneven coating, scratches, etc). This is why the disks pixelate. I limit my burn files to 4.272GB and have had no problems. | ||||||
| GMaq posted 2004 Apr 29 08:17 | ||||||
| I like many of you was also bummed to discover this problem, Now the camp that believes that disc balance is the problem will flame me for this but I have started labeling my discs with "Brother P-Touch" tape labels, I use clear label tape, make the labels as small as possible with a small font and try to mount the label toward the centre of the disc. So far no playback problems on both my home players which didn't like the sticky labels at all. if you can't live with your handwriting with a Sharpie, this may work for you. Just throwin' it out there. :wink: | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Apr 29 12:29 | ||||||
I fill my printable riteks right to the brim (4.7GB) and print on them with an Epson R200, not had one fail yet. :D | ||||||
| winifreid posted 2004 Apr 29 15:32 | ||||||
| I have a Magnavox MDV455. I had a disk that was skipping and freezing repeatedly at almost anyplace on the disk. It had a paper label covered in ink. I then removed the label with water and soap and no more problems. Most of my disks don't have this problem even thought they have labels. This disk was burned with high compression. I haven't had the burner very long, so maybe my other disks will develope problems as well. If I were to guess, I would say that heat buildup is the problem. An interesting test would be to use a store bought disk and put a label on it and see if it developes problems. | ||||||
| pbanders posted 2004 May 07 12:12 | ||||||
| I have no need for fancy labels for my DVD/CD's. I use Ritek's for my DVD's, and most of my CD's are TDK's that I've bought for as little as $0.06 each. For rewriteable media, I use a Brother TZ label maker, which uses extremely thin plastic labels that weigh almost nothing. I have never had the slightest problem with playback in dozens of players and across wide temperature ranges (I live in Phoenix). Labels stay on until I peel them off. For non-rewritable media, I use a Sharpie. Again, never the slightest problem. I've burned over a thousand CD's and hundreds of DVD's and lableled them this way. YMMV. | ||||||
| PJGS posted 2004 May 09 15:51 | ||||||
| A friend of mine has several DVD-R's damaged by the labels.
He was the only one with playback problems, and it took us a while to realize taht the labels were the big problem!. | ||||||
| Madz posted 2004 May 27 17:50 | ||||||
| I've had label trouble using Neato matte's w/ some types of media. Exactly how do you remove them w/ warm soap & water? Wet the label or dunk the whole disk in (kind've like recovering uncancelled stamps from envelopes)? Thought I also saw mention of using "Goo Gone" to remove the labels cleanly w/o residue. Would that product do any damage to the disk surface? | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2004 May 27 19:09 | ||||||
| I used Goo Gone on about a dozen DVDs with paper labels (Neato). I was having problems playing them on my DVD player -- after removing the labels every one played perfectly.
As far as I can tell Goo Gone doesn't harm the disks. Squirt some on and spread it around the full surface of the label. Let it sit for 10 minutes or so. The label will then lift off pretty easily. You'll probably have to rub a little left over glue off with a paper towel and some more Goo Gone. Finally I rinse the disk in warm water and blot dry. | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 May 27 19:26 | ||||||
| I soak them in soapy water for a while (no specific length of time), then scrape off as much as I can with my fingernail. That seems to be enough. There's no need to get all the glue off, just all of the paper. You'd think this would be a clue as to what's going on, but it's hard to say...
+ | ||||||
| Captain315 posted 2004 May 27 20:42 | ||||||
| I'm relatively new at this but I agree that this is a problem that needs to be solved. Just to add my two-cents worth, I've burned 163 DVD+R discs and (so far) have had no problems. They work on six different players scattered across the family.
I use the SureThing labeler and their brilliant matte, full-face labels for all my discs. I print them on a Canon S900 ink jet printer. This pretty well puts me in the typical usage category. I've been using Memorex, Verbatim, Fuji and am presently waiting for an order of Ritek discs to arrive. My burner is a Plextor 708A and my program of choice is Shrink used with Nero Ultra. I know this doesn't help anyone but I just wanted to add my experience. | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 May 27 22:02 | ||||||
| Like you, Captain315, I went a long time (almost a year and several hundred discs) before having any problems. But then they came up one after the other. It rapidly became a very big nightmare.
Part of the equation is that the adhesive on the labels dries over time. Discs that played perfectly last October had started pixellating and freezing toward the end of the program by January. By March the problems were occurring in the middle of the program. At first I thought that all the discs were just slowly going bad and started to freak out. :shock: The good news is that as soon as I removed the label, they played perfectly again. :jumpy: (It should be noted that sometimes problems come up immediately after the label is attached.) Keep these things in mind before investing too much time and energy (and $) into sticky labels. (I've sworn them off altogether and now print directly on Ritek printable discs with the Epson R200.) Peace. + | ||||||
| Madz posted 2004 May 28 17:45 | ||||||
| Thought of the printable idea, but buying a rather expensive printer and special media wasn't too appealing to me. Went back to the ol' Sharpie pen. :winky: | ||||||
| andyp1 posted 2004 May 28 18:18 | ||||||
| I don't think I could classify the r200 as a rather expensive printer and printable media are not much different in price to non-printable are they. | ||||||
| sray2k posted 2004 May 28 20:08 | ||||||
| Well, Well, well...
I must say, It must be How you handle the disc. I ALWAYS label my dvd-r's and NO problems !! So far ALL the dvd players in my family...we had NO problems at all !!! Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents !! :) Scott | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 May 28 20:09 | ||||||
Epson R200: $99 at CompUSA (less online). Ritek printable DVD-R: $0.74 each (qty 100) at SuperMediaStore.com. + | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 May 28 21:16 | ||||||
Yea ok, its how we handle the discs :doh: | ||||||
| Madz posted 2004 May 29 05:46 | ||||||
| Madz posted 2004 May 29 05:50 | ||||||
| Sorry about those extra posts, but I kept getting an error (below) so didn't know if it had taken. Mods, please remove extras. ;) | ||||||
| Madz posted 2004 May 29 05:51 | ||||||
| Ditto here too. :) | ||||||
| Madz posted 2004 May 29 05:55 | ||||||
| I tried to quote rixware, but it kept giving me this upon post attempt:
General Error: Could not insert new word matches. But OK, I was looking at the R300M (~$240). But maybe, just maybe. | ||||||
| Espen posted 2004 May 29 07:20 | ||||||
| I have labeld my DVDs for almost two years now and was quite frustrated that the labels sometimes did screw up the playback. This happend to all media, but the cheap once seems to be worst and allwys failed together with picky players.
Now after two years of testings and research it seems like I have found the perfect media for labels. The media I'm talking about is Datasafe(Ritek G04) also known as one of the absolute best Ritek discs out there! I have burnt atleast 50 dvds so far and tested them in atleast 10 players without any problems at all. This is the first brand that have worked out perfect even thue all Riteks G04 I have tested so far have give very good results. I have no idea what the long term results will be, but I most say I'm not that affraid of the future....... Here what I use: Burner: LG 4040b Disc: Datasafe 4x DVD-r Ritek G04 Labels: Avery 9660A Full face labels Glossy Avery 8676A Full face labels Matte Neato Matte labels Labeling System: Afterburner | ||||||
| ozstar100 posted 2004 Jun 03 19:53 | ||||||
| Hi,
I have burnt a few hundred DVDs Princos white top and put labels on them that I had printed at a Kwik Print printer with a laser printer.. Nice and shiny etc. I authored with Media Studio 7 burnt with AO106D using Ulead Workshop. About 6 have come back not being able to be played in some players.. (all different) I sent two off recently that I didn't label but printed with my new Epson R200. Got emails saying they play perfectly.. One player was a theatre system.. LG..MODEL DA-3530.. As I still have 3/400 labels I wil still use them until finished and use the R200 with returns.. Can't wait to get media that works with labels and ALL players.. or, glossy ink printers. :D | ||||||
| LeeBear posted 2004 Jun 03 21:04 | ||||||
| It's been awhile since I've posted in this forum, but I thought this post was pretty interesting and thought I should add some insight to it. From all the postings it seems people are pretty much divided on the label issue. Half says they have no problems with labels the other half do have problems, always with the same symptoms.... the movie gets pixelated near the end of the disc. There's been speculations and theories on what causes this but nobody has done any quantifiable test to once and for all answer the question, do sticky labels screwup playback.
Well I did a test to hopefully try and get to the bottom of this. I burnt a DVD movie at 4x onto a RitekG04 DVD-R disc. Ran Kprobe and did a PI/PO error scan on the disc. Then I put a sticky label onto the same DVD-R (using a CDStomper) and ran the test again to see the difference. The graphs are below so people can draw there own conclusions if they don't agree with my assessment. The top graphs from the disc before the label and the bottom disc after the label is put on. Firstly for the people who doesn't understand what PI/PO errors are you can google it and find out. The important thing though to know is that the standard for DVD media is that the PI error should not exceed 280 and the PO error should not exceed 32 (ignoring single spikes). Also note that the error rate is dependent on the device that's reading it (in my graphs it's a Liteon DVD-ROM) and of course the speed at which the disc is being read, with a slower speed resulting in less errors obviously. For my tests to conserve time I just read the disc at max speed of the DVD-ROM since I'm not really interested in the 'real' amount of errors when played back at 1x (like on a DVD player) but to see if the label makes a difference. 
As you can see from the graphs, it can be safely concluded that "YES" sticky labels can screwup playback. As you can see from the first graphs (disc without label) the error rates are steady throughout the scan, and are well below the standards. It should have no problems on any player. Now if you look at the second graphs (disc with label) you can see that the error rates start off the same but gradually climbs higher and higher (towards the end of disc) and near the end of the disc the error rate is higher then the standards allow. This disc would probably play fine until near the end of the disc where some players will start having problems... this is consistant with people's experience with pixilating near the end of the movie. In the real world test of this disc I burnt it played fine on both DVD players I tried them on, a Phillips and a Panasonic. You maybe wondering why if the error was above 280 on the graph it didn't cause any problems on playback in the realworld. Remember the error rate is device and speed dependent, a setup DVD player reads at only 1x speed my graphs are for the max speed and even then only the end of the disc shows error rate above the standards. CONCLUSION: Can labels screwup the playback of DVDR's? Yes Why do some people experience playback problems and others don't? Some players are more sensitive to bad media. Also the media you put the label on makes a difference. Although the label does cause more errors the error rate can still be below the ECMA standards. Why do labels increase the error rate? This is debateable and everyone has there own theories. My person opinion is the label is 'warping' the disc and causing focusing problems for the dvd player. Have you ever noticed when you peel off a label from it's sheet it has a tendency to curl up? Now if the label has this 'curl up' tendency when you place it on your disc this would act as a small force pulling the edge of the disc up. This is what I mean by 'warping' the disc. It might just be warping the disc enough to cause the errors. This would explain why the error rate increases near the end of the disc, because the disc would be warped the most at the outter edge. I hope that helps... time to get a CD printer :cry: -LeeBear | ||||||
| ozstar100 posted 2004 Jun 04 00:42 | ||||||
| This does make a lot of sense.
Thanks for the test and showing us the actual graphs. It is a real pain in the proverbial when one is confronted with a problem with no satisfactory answer such as the label yes - label no debate. It is the same as the media stuff.. this works, that works and it all seems so subjective. There must be stand alone players out there that can be considered to be 'flaky' when it comes to playing burnt discs, however when one sells or gives to hundreds of people without knowing their player make and model, one has to take the risk that these 'flaky' players exist. So even if we knew these particular players, we ask everuonbe what plyaer they have before getting the DVD to them. I guess it is all about companies who make players mainly for a 'movie' watching market and as long as their laser is strong enough for that, they feel okay. It would be good if somehow all the problems and results that come to this forum can't be passed on to the manufacturer so they can test their players to see waht it is that makes them not play some burnt discs. I guess it will all come out in the wash as time goes by.. better media.. better lasers etc.. I'm already old, can't wait too much longer!! :wink: In the meantime I going to use the DVD printer more than the labels. As a footnote.. I tried a new DVD disc with the same burn method as the Princo I use, and even tho' I printed direct to it, about 10 mins in from the end of the 74 show, it started to freeze, release,freeze, release etc. I treid another newly burnt Princo and it worked fine. So there you go, even with no label.. some media can be flaky as well. :D | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2004 Jun 04 10:21 | ||||||
| LeeBear,
Great bit of detective work! I can't rule out your "warp" theory but I have an alternative suggestion: Adding a label increases the mass of the disk and can create an uneven distribution of mass (an unbalanced condition). There's no way to perfectly place a label on a disk. Even if it looks perfect to the naked eye the label will be slightly off center. Even if you could place it exactly on center you can't be sure that the thickness of the paper and glue is perfectly uniform. In short adding a label will usually slightly unbalance a DVD. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Why would this cause problems on the outer edge of the disk but not the inner? Because DVD players use constant linear velocity, not constant angular velocity. The disk spins faster when reading near the center, slower when reading near the edge. If you listen closely you can probably hear the difference in pitch when the heads seek across a disk. The wobble caused by an unbalanced disk would vary with frequency. It's not as simple as "the faster it spins, the more it wobbles". There is a resonant frequency at which the wobble will be at its worst. Have you ever been in a car where one of the balance weights has fallen off a tire? At slow speeds you don't notice any problems. As you speed up the tire starts to wobble. It gets worse and worse until you reach a certain speed. Above that speed the wobble weakens and eventually disappears. Tire manufacturers try to make their tires as balanced as possible. But they're always a little bit off. When new tires are mounted on you rims small metal weights are usually added to more fully balance them. Go out and look at your car -- you'll can usually see the weights mounted where the tire meets the rim. I postulate that the resonant frequency of a DVD with label is somewhere near the speed the disk spins when the DVD players is reading from the outer edges. There are two factors at work here. Adding a label increases the total mass. This would decrease the resonant frequency. But adding a label will slightly unbalance the disk. It might be an interesting experiment to run your tests again with the DVD spinning at a lower frequencies. It won't be definitive because most DVD drives have some wobble reduction mechanism. The mechanism may be better able to cope with the lower frequency wobble. Or it may not. In any case, thanks for running your test and posting the results. | ||||||
| johns0 posted 2004 Jun 04 11:22 | ||||||
| I tend to go with the warp disc theory over the unbalanced disc theory,other people have applied just half a label to a dvd/cd just to see what would happen and no adverse affects,only when the whole dvd/cd is covered. | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Jun 04 11:49 | ||||||
| LeeBear, great work! Proof positive that the sticky label DOES make a difference, and CAN make discs unreadable. I just wish we could get that info to the label companies -- who still deny that their labels could possibly cause any problems. Maybe they could figure out why and create error-free labels (even though I wouldn't use them now that I have my R200).
junkmalle, nice theory. I'm afraid that my experience would tend to refute it. I told the whole story earlier in this long thread, but here's the short version: 1. The errors tend to increase as the adhesive on the label dries. Discs I made last October started showing errors in January and were virtually unplayable by March. (This is in addition to some discs which showed errors as soon as the label was applied.) 2. On any discs that show errors -- whether they happened instantly or came on gradually -- simply removing the paper part of the label made them playable again. 3. It was very difficult (using just soap and water) to get all of the label off. After removing the paper portion, large bits of glue were left in a random pattern. This would certainly lead to unbalanced spin. Yet the discs played perfectly. I lean toward the theory that the tension of the paper in the label changes the laser angle. I wish there were some way to test this... Rick + | ||||||
| winifreid posted 2004 Jun 04 11:55 | ||||||
| I doubt either theory. The balance theory seems to proved wrong by the test of half a label. Also, when lables are removed, unvenen amounts of glue are left behind that would lead to some slight changes in balance, but the disks play. I have only had the problem with a couple of disks and then they played after the label was removed. I also doubt the warp idea. If you look at the label sheet, it lies flat. How could the label warp a hard piece of plastic and not a thin sheet of paper? Also, it seems that a half label would warp the disk even more. | ||||||
| TheFamilyMan posted 2004 Jun 04 11:55 | ||||||
| I can't resist this thread - I use sticky labels and have not had any problems (yet). I have some disks that are about a year old and they play fine to the end.
The curling label theory: My labeling kit suggest that when you peel the label, start by peeling off a very small portion. Then flip the whole sheet upside down. Hold down the label by the part you have peeled against the surface its on (e.g. table top) and pull the sheet from the label. When this is done properly, the label come off completely flat. I've never let it sit around like this for more than a minute or two and I've never seen it start to curl up on its own. Someone should experiment with differing times and paper types to measure the curl rate. :D Now the glue/paper shinking over time...who knows? :| A popular myth (maybe true) about vinyl LPs: the shrink rap covering the jacket can warp the record over time. But...who cares.... :?: | ||||||
| JMO posted 2004 Jun 04 12:49 | ||||||
| Just had a Sherlock Holmes moment - it may be the hub clutch used in some models of player that causes the "some will, some won't" problem. When the disc drawer retracts into the player, the disc is both lifted out of the loading tray and clamped top and bottom by the hub clutch and drive. The laser focuses on the disc as it spins up. The label makes the disc slightly thicker and the laser has to focus shorter than it would on a standard pre-recorded disc. The variance comes in with the clutch itself, whether it comes in contact with the label itself and therefore foreshortens the focus of the laser.
Strikes me, though that nobody might want to verify this because you'd have to open up your player to find out. :) | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2004 Jun 04 13:46 | ||||||
| rixware,
Thanks for the details of your experience. Of course, there's no reason that both our hypotheses can't be true. Some players may be more sensitive to one problem or the other. When I've removed labels I've always used Goo Gone to compeletely remove the label AND glue. I didn't want to put a sticky DVD in my player! In any case, every disk that wouldn't play properly with a label (old or new) worked fine after removing the label. I've seen JMO's hypothesis (paper near the hub) mentioned before too. That one seems least likely to me (I WAS using full coverage labels though!) but can't be ruled out. I know my player get real upset if I put two DVDs in the tray! Maybe I'll try a few labels that don't cover the clear center area (hub problem) and some half labels (worst case balance problem) just as a test... | ||||||
| sogarapleteame posted 2004 Jun 04 13:58 | ||||||
| Hey!!!! I agree with you 100%.
Definitively: no label no problem. But, for example, in my PS2 I have no problems at all. | ||||||
| johns0 posted 2004 Jun 04 14:11 | ||||||
| JMO,no go,the dvd is lifted from the bottom where there is no label so there is no difference. | ||||||
| joy posted 2004 Jun 04 15:29 | ||||||
| My experience with label was a nightmare. I was playing a disk in my Pioneer Karaoke DVD player. The disk has sticky label on it. After the movie, pushed the open tray button to retrieve the disk out. Surprise!!!! The tray was empty. (Suddenly it came to my mind all the bad stuffs that I had read before in this site about those labels.) So I tried closing the tray and turned off the player, but it won’t turn off. I unplugged it, opened the case and discovered something terrible happened to the “LABEL” and the disk. The disk was someplace else inside the compartment and a quarter of the label was peeled off from the disk and that part was stuck to a metal part inside the tray compartment which explains that “empty tray” earlier. So what I did was to struggle in peeling off the label from the disk while it was still “inside”, then after that forced the disk out through an opening that was just enough for it to come out. I was worried that my player was damaged after all this maneuvering so I plugged it back, put a disk inside, played it but so far only minor(hopefully) problems.
Lesson learned-never again to put any label on my disk | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2004 Jun 04 17:05 | ||||||
| joy,
I've read that labels can come off while playing but yours is the only first hand report I've ever seen. Thanks for the great horror story! | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Jun 04 17:38 | ||||||
One theory is that the plastic of the disc, the adhesive, and the paper all heat up at different rates and to different degrees. This can cause a situation where the centrifugal force created by the spinning causes the disc to bow ever so slighty -- just enough to change the laser angle beyond its tolerances. I'm not an engineer, and I'm sure someone can explain this theory in more detail. But this is what I've read. Rick + | ||||||
| DVD_Bar posted 2004 Jun 04 18:11 | ||||||
| I don't know what all the fuss is about. I have applied labels to approx. 30-40 DVD's and never once had a problem.
I have used High Glossy labels from CD stomper and from Label Gear, print some fairly ink intensive labels (Photos, letters, backgrounds...) with an Epson Photo Ink Jet printer, let the labels dry, and apply carefully with a CD stomper labeler (after applying carefully... radially from center outward rub/apply them so they firmly stick without bubbles). Never had any skipping... and these have been run in a variety of DVD players. | ||||||
| johns0 posted 2004 Jun 04 20:25 | ||||||
| Only 30-40 dvds labeled isnt anything,others here have burned and labeled 10x as many and dont have problems,its a problem that does affect some,myself included. | ||||||
| lchiu7 posted 2004 Jun 04 21:45 | ||||||
| I have had intermittent label problems too - with some players they work fine, with others I get pixelation etc as the disc plays on.
I guess what I can't understand is, the commercial discs I rent all have plastic labels on them together with two security strips and so far I have had no problem with reading these discs I wonder if there is a difference between a labelled commercial disk and a lablled home burnt one? Larry | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Jun 05 01:14 | ||||||
Making discs for your own use on your own player is one thing. I make discs professionally, and have to make sure they will play on as many players as possible. (I burned approximately 2000 discs in 2003, and have burned around 1500 already in 2004.) Even in your situation, however, sticky labels are a virtual guarantee of problems somewhere down the road. Don't use them. You WILL regret it eventually. (If you read carefully above, you'll find that problems do not necessarily appear right away, but over a period of weeks, months or years.) The great thing is that the alternative is about six million times better and actually (if you shop carefully) cheaper per disc: printable media and the Epson R200 printer.
Commercial discs are made with a process that bears no relation whatsoever to writable media. They may look the same, but are COMPLETELY different in their physical structure and manufacturing method. It's apples to oranges. + | ||||||
| lchiu7 posted 2004 Jun 05 16:16 | ||||||
I guess I wasn't clear enough in this note. I was wondering is there any difference between a disc you burn yourself and label, and a commercial disc that a rental company applies a label to in terms of additional weight, off centre weight balance etc. . In my situation they apply two thin strips of material on the DVD (to trigger a security system at the door) and then apply a thin piece of plastic film over the entire DVD. These play fine on my machines whereas I have problems with some discs that I have labelled myself | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Jun 05 18:34 | ||||||
| Because the two types of discs are so different, labels cannot affect commercial discs in the same way they affect discs you make yourself.
Here are the basics: In commercial discs, the pits which contain the data (1s and 0s) are cut into metal making them permanent. In writable discs, the pits are created in a layer of dye by a laser. Commercial discs are significantly less likely to have data errors of any type under any circumstances (short of scratches). With DVD-R et. al., given what needs to take place in the writing process, it's something of a miracle that writable DVDs are even possible. I think it has been well established (by rental stores) that sticky labels have no affect whatsoever on the playback of commercial discs. This is not a surprise because the data layer is created in such a radically different fashion and is not susceptible to the same problems as writable discs. This also refutes all of the "wobble theories" you may hear about. I think it can be safely concluded that wobble during playback is not the reason sticky labels cause data problems with writable discs. And given that writable DVDs have a certain fragility built into the data storage process in the first place, it is similarly likely that something attached to the disc -- especially if it altered the plane of the disc -- could have adverse consequences to the data integrity. Of course, no one yet knows for sure. + | ||||||
| LeeBear posted 2004 Jun 06 05:05 | ||||||
Commercial disks don't use 'stick' on labels. The labels on commercial disk are usually silk screen onto the disck The fact that rental places uses security strips that causes unblance to the disk yet no playback problem are experience is why many rule out that the sticky label makes the disc unbalance and that's what's causing the problem. Even if you don't experience problems with sticky labels I'd still avoid using them now until a clearer answer to the cause of the problem is found. Even if your disc plays fine with a label on it, my test clearly shows the error rate is much higher, so your disc is that much closer to not working. -LeeBear | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2004 Jun 06 05:48 | ||||||
I don't think the fact that sticky labels don't cause problems on pressed DVDs means you can state conclusively they can't cause problems on writable media. The lower reflectivity of DVD R/RW media makes it harder for DVD players to read them. If you toss in the additional difficulty of increased wobble they may cross the line from "difficult" to "not possible". And I'm not so sure the fact that some rental stores use sticky labels means they don't cause occasional problems on some players. It may just mean that the benefits (to the store) of using labels (RFID tag + label = fewer stolen disks) outweigh the risks (an occasional disk that doesn't play in a small percentage of players). | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Jun 06 10:12 | ||||||
| If rental stores use them, you can be sure they cause no (not less) problems. If they caused any problems at all, the stores and the industry would figure out another security procedure.
And all I'm saying is that this fact elminates wobble as a potential factor in why labels cause problems on writables. If wobble were a factor, those discs would not play -- or would at least experience some problems in some players. And if wobble were truly a factor, the glue that's left after I remove the paper part of the labels would still cause a problem (it's thick in spots, and randomly distributed). Once you remove the paper, they play fine -- even with a bunch of glue remnants left on them. + | ||||||
| freebird1963 posted 2004 Jun 06 21:28 | ||||||
| So how are the commercial movie ones we buy labeled ?
I looked at several different ones of mine and they kinda looked like a label but I am not sure. Or are the "silked screened" on ? I would lilke to make my dvd backups look pretty in color. THanks Mark | ||||||
| lchiu7 posted 2004 Jun 11 21:49 | ||||||
The discs I rent have a piece of thin plastic film on them which cover 2 thin metal strips that presumably are some sort of detection device. So this thin plastic layer must add some weight and yet they play on all my players whereas discs I have labelled myself which play okay before labelling, don't play after labelling This is just a data point - not a conclusion Larry | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Jun 11 22:18 | ||||||
| Let's put this one to bed. Consider the following, culled from posts above:
1. Commercial DVD with unbalanced metal strips attached: Plays fine. 2. Writable DVD with random gobs of glue still attached: Plays fine. 3. Writable DVD with no label: Plays fine. 4. Writable DVD with full sticky label: Data errors. Of these four conditions, the first two represent UNBALANCED discs -- yet they still play fine. The last two represent BALANCED (or very close to it) discs -- one of which will not play. The only variable is the sticky label. Conclusions: 1. Perfect balance is not a requirement for successful playing. 2. Out-of-balance discs do not necessarily show errors. 3. Discs with full sticky labels do show data errors even when well-balanced. Therefore, it may be safely concluded that balance problems ARE NOT the reason that sticky labels cause data errors. I'm not saying that I know what the real problem is, just that it is possible with our collective observations to rule out balance problems as an issue. This is not to say that problems with spin frequency (mentioned above) might not turn out to be the culprit. But balance will not. + | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Jun 11 23:33 | ||||||
| And you really think this the end to the debate? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: | ||||||
| virtual133 posted 2004 Jun 11 23:34 | ||||||
| rixware - since you do this professionally-
I am going to be coming out with a VHS to DVD business soon...what do you recommend I use to label the discs? NOTE: I have an Espon R300 (allows you to directly print on disc). Should I just buy printable media and print right on the disc? If so, what works for you? | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Jun 11 23:38 | ||||||
Since hub labels are "sticky" labels, and have not caused any known problems, this leaves a hole in the sticky label hypothesis. | ||||||
| LeeBear posted 2004 Jun 12 00:17 | ||||||
| Hub labels do not cover up any area of the writable surface. Also they are small and located at the center of the disc, which if you see from my error graphs even with a full sticky label you don't really see the error rate go up until the outter edges of the disc. So the full sticky label theory is still valid.
-LeeBear | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Jun 12 00:26 | ||||||
I stand corrected. :oops: I use the hub labels because they are sharp looking, cheaper than full labels, have no adverse effects, and are replaceable if they are misprinted or misapplied. | ||||||
| lchiu7 posted 2004 Jun 12 00:58 | ||||||
| Just let me add my experience which is the rental discs I encounter have two strips of metal on them - on opposite sides of the center so they are placed to balance each other out
Larry | ||||||
| rixware posted 2004 Jun 12 11:04 | ||||||
No, unfortunately the debate about why sticky labels cause problems will go on -- mostly because the label companies won't admit there's a problem. (Interestingly, the disc companies unanimously recommend against using labels of any type on writable media -- but don't give the reason.) Thanks to LeeBear, we have documented proof that there is a data problem when full sticky labels get attached. I'm just hoping to lay the theory about unbalanced spin to rest since there is now plenty of evidence to refute it...
Larry, thanks for your input. Please keep in mind that we are discussing problems with writable discs not commercially produced discs. The discs you rent from the store have a different physical structure, are made with a different process, and labeled with a completely different process. The fact that they have metal strips attached (regardless of where they are placed) does serve to partially refute the theory that unbalanced spin is what causes the data errors LeeBear reported. Beyond that, there is too much difference between the types of discs to make a useful comparison.
I use the Epson R200 (just like the R300 but without the media slots) and Ritek printable media. + | ||||||
| lchiu7 posted 2004 Jun 12 20:09 | ||||||
| Lots of anecdotal and pragmatic experiences here. I guess what I take from this
1. Commerical discs because of the their pit technology are easier to read by the lasers and therefore less susceptible to increased weight from labels, off centre labels etc. 2. YMMW will vary with your burnt ones. For my part I have DVD's I have burnt that labelled with CD type labels that will play in my Sony DRU500A and a cheap supermarket DVD player but not in other units 3. To be sure probably don't label them at all, use a Sharpie or perhaps print on printable labels 4. I wonder how much less compatibility will come with dual layer discs that we burn which are probably going to be more picky Larry | ||||||
| videodummy posted 2004 Jun 16 11:16 | ||||||
I think the important thing to remember when applying labels printed with ink is to give the label plenty of time to dry before applying. I've successfully authored over 150 DVDs from my VHS library and I haven't had a single problem with any of my movies. I do believe applying the label before it is completely dry might have a destabilizing effect on the disc. When I first came to this site I was simply videodummy. Now, I'm a dummy with an attitude. :-) | ||||||
| NVOGEL posted 2004 Jun 18 15:24 | ||||||
| I've enjoyed reading the great detective work posted on this thread. I work in a University Media Library and I thought I could shed some light on this cause, as it has plagued our circulation proceedures since we began building our DVD collection.
FIRST: Security Labels on commercial discs DO CAUSE PLAYBACK FAILURE. In fact, most rental stores have abandoned this security method and instead use lockable boxes that are unlocked upon check out. This, like stated earlier is highly variable depending on the player in which the disc is viewed. SECOND: Playback failure seems to be linked to a combination of Warping and Unbalance. This is especially true with burned discs. Their lack of aluminum pits and leads tends to encourage distortion of the data on the disc. THIRD: HEAT, HEAT, HEAT!!!!!!! This is the most important factor in these discs pixelating and failing to play. As shown in earlier threads, errors increase in the later half of the disc. What is not shown is that if the movie is started at the end, and played in 1x rewind, the errors will occur a the beggining of the film. As the laser warms the disc, the adhesive on the label begins to melt. As it melts, the glue releases portions of the label and the air between the disc and label expands. One way we've determined this as a factor is by letting a malfunctioning disc cool and then skipping to the place in the film where the errors began to occur. The discs will play fine if the label is re-stomped and left to cool. However, any prolonged time in a hot environment will lead to more problems. The HEAT causes both a warping effect and a tendency for the disc to become unbalanced. The warping is best comparded to a bed sheet. If a taught bed sheet is stiched around the edge of the bed, and then pulled upwards from the center of the bed, then the edges are pulled as well. This causes a "cupping" effect which is gone when the disc returns to room temperature. This is also why labeled DVDs will become increasingly difficult to play with time. The disc is being bent and unbent repeatedly, and eventually the data is compromised. The unbalance results as the label shifts and bubbles while in the player. You wouldn't want to stick a freshly labeled DVD in the player until the glue sets. Unfortunately, when heated, the glue returns to a state more like when it was first applied. As the thickness of the disc increases, the uniformity of wieght, and yes, air resistance, varies in an unpredictable manner. CONCLUSION: DON'T LABEL DVDs, use a sharpie on the disc, and label the case instead. We must understand that the players are trying to read 30 miles of digital information in a very finite amount of time. This is why the label problem is really only prevalent in DVD players that are high-quality, or more precise machines. In a cheap $40.00 APEX model, so much data is ignored by the machine anyway, that if some is not readable then it is simply overlooked. X-BOXes, Playstations, and Hi-Q DVD players are extremely precise and rely on a steady stream of information to function normally. (remember in VG consoles, most often the disc is not constantly spinning, b/c information is downloaded and accessed via the unit hard drive) Recordable discs are more likely to have problems with labels, because the playback is not only dependent on the player and the disc, but also on the ability of the DVD burner to effectively imprint the proper information on the disc. Remember, commercial disc are produced in mass quantity. We we burn a movie, most often it is the only time we burn that information to any disc. Imperfections are worked out via repetition and practice burning the same source file. If you don't have a problem GREAT! However, DVD players are becoming more and more precise and are constantly adding new features. If you are burning and labeling DVDs for archival purposes, you could face losing all the information on that disc if your new player is "too good." TIPS FOR PLAYBACK SUCCESS: 1. DONT LABEL 2. Let labeled discs cool and press the label back to the disc (use a piece of felt so you don't scratch the underside) 3. Don't play labeled discs in a computer. The environment is hotter, and more glue will melt. 4. Unstack components of your home theatre. Have your DVD player seperate from other units and set aside where airflow is relatively free. 5. Buy a cheap DVD player. If you have problems with any particular disc, most often you can get at least a low quality playback with the cheaper players. Reserve the use of expensive and HI-Q players for discs without labels. 6. COMPLAIN, COMPLAIN, COMPLAIN. As in earlier messages, label companies won't admit their fault in the problem unless they hear from unsatisfied customers. If you don't have a problem, complain anyway. A better solution is the only way to prevent an inevidable failure during playback. If your labels work fine now, just wait until you have to buy a better DVD players that has more heat and less tolerance for inconsistent data strings. HOPE THIS HELPS :-) | ||||||
| Ranaya_Kay posted 2004 Jul 15 23:04 | ||||||
| I'm getting scared after read this thread. I've used both Full face and regular labels. I've labeled over 250 DVD-R (mostly Ritek), matte tops. However, I haven't encounter a problem about they playing back in my Standalone DVD Players (Panasonic, Apex, Aspire Digital, Pionner, AMW, and Sony).
I still have about 800 Full face labels yet. I'll try all my DVDs and see what will hapen before label the rest on my DVD-R. Hopefully thing will go well. | ||||||
| oncall posted 2004 Jul 22 12:54 | ||||||
| If DVD labels do cause playback issues (which may be my case) then can you still rip the movie on the burned labeled DVD copy and then reburn it onto a new blank DVD disc?
Thanks! | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2004 Jul 22 13:08 | ||||||
| Just remove the label, they come off ok with warm soapy water. | ||||||
| MeDiCo_BrUjO posted 2004 Jul 22 13:24 | ||||||
| I've used labels until I found that my dvd's started having playback problems... I thought I was crazy for thinking that maybe the labels were the cause, but now I know It's not just me.
Anyways, I stopped using the labels, and the problems also stopped!. I've never tried printing directly to the disc though, I hope it's better than labels. | ||||||
| LeeBear posted 2004 Jul 26 02:57 | ||||||
| MeDiCo_BrUjO: If you want to print directly onto the disc you will need a printer that can do that, and you'll also need to buy media's with a printable top. I have the Epson R200 printer now to print my disc (instead of labels) and I've done some scans of the discs and they don't exihibit the 'increased error rate' that the disc with labels have and it also looks better imo.
-LeeBear | ||||||
| Jiggly posted 2004 Jul 31 21:52 | ||||||
| Here's another take on the read problem associated with labels-- I noticed a friction change particularly related to paper labels. The DVD player has to grab the disk and spin it somehow, and usually it's a simple friction fit relying mostly on a little round sponge thing and very little pressure applied to hold the DVD in place.
I have a cheap DVD player with an overheating problem I fixed by simply opening the case cover to vent the player better. So I can watch the DVD spin or reach in and mess with the thing. This particular player has a little grey disk-sponge which is not terribly flexible, and doesn't provide much friction. On burned titles I had applied paper labels to, I discovered by pressing in against the outer edge of the DVD I could stop them from spinning (independent of the drive motor which kept spinning) with very little effort. On pressed titles with the standard paint or plastic surfaces there was some extra amount of pressure required to stop the spinning disk. It occurred to me that when the player changes speed abruptly to access different parts of the program, the paper labeled DVDs slip freely in the mechanism and won't "brake" properly. The result is crappy playback. I was wondering what would happen on a "real" DVD-- so I put a paper sticky label on a professionally pressed DVD, and it ALSO slipped in the mechanism and messed up while accessing different chapters--as well as during layer changes. Any time the player speed changed, the DVD slipped a little and the playback glitched. I'm guessing the low-friction surfaces of paper labels are the cause. I'm thinking this might explain some of the weirder unexplainable cases where the DVD isn't cupped or out of balance. Since speed changes are important and frequent, maybe this is significant. It seems the labels only bother the cheap player. The Playstation2 and Sony DVD changer didn't mind the labels, and all of our PCs have no issues. Maybe some players with inadequate buffers just cannot handle the little speed differences? Richie | ||||||
| Dr.Gee posted 2004 Aug 05 10:47 | ||||||
will the next gen of labels have a sandpaper hub? :lol: | ||||||
| eugchen posted 2004 Aug 12 10:09 | ||||||
| have not read through this enormous thread yet, but i have been also having problems with dvd labels. i use the neato fellowes brand and apply them perfectly. most of the problems i have are with the end of the movie, and things freezing and such. i have about 300 movies with labels, and about only 15 of them so far are messed up. it is difficult to check them all, so i check each one by hand, but do not watch the whole thing...i fast forward throughout to try and catch errors. i believe it is a label issue because i have started writing to discs without labels and they all seem to be ok. just my $0.02. | ||||||
| Dr.Gee posted 2004 Aug 13 17:32 | ||||||
I was thinking about your concept. What about 2 sided discs without any thing on either side?These have to be slippery. I think glossy labels would have more grip.. | ||||||
| Rogue3 posted 2004 Aug 16 10:02 | ||||||
| So, how many people use inkjet for printing and how many use laser? I always wondered if the inkjets had something to do with it because of the ink possible harming the data on the disk. I've always used a laser printer to print my labels and have printed hundreds for myself and other people with zero failures yet using the neato matte finish labels. My dad on the other hand printed his on the same type of label with an inkjet printer and it failed in my dvd player. It was the first failure my dvd player had after the hundreds of my laser printed labels put through it. During the laser process the toner is physically melted to the label and then dried through the fuser so there will never be any chemical bleed like you can get with inkjet prints.
Just a thought! | ||||||
| Tommyp1972 posted 2004 Sep 23 07:56 | ||||||
| the problem with labels is that dvd's have to read a very small path..a label even if you think its on perfect still is out of round a hair..cd's have a larger path to read so this is not an issue with them..but a dvd with the extra weight and the weight of the ink will always offset the balance of a dvd eventually..if you applied a label with ink on 1/2 and played it, the balance problem can be easily seen..to solve this issue you can apply the label PRIOR TO BURNING. so the laser burns out of round with the disk..that way all is balance...BUT and i do mean BUT..just remember if you are burning an off balance dvd with 4.7GB being burned to the edge..1 side will have some space left while the other side will be missing some due to the wobble..think about this before applying paper labels..inkjets do a great job on printables and thermals do a great job but just print them 1st then burn..the chances are far less of being off balance than with paper.. | ||||||
| winifreid posted 2004 Sep 23 15:14 | ||||||
| Wow! | ||||||
| B2D327 posted 2004 Sep 23 17:23 | ||||||
| I've labeled about 40 backups from my personal collection and have had no problems with playback on my Panasonic unit. My guess would be the quality of the labels being the problem; uneven adhesive layers, cheap paper. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Sep 23 17:30 | ||||||
| Yes, we have heard to no end those who have labeled hundreds of thousands of DVDs/CDs with no problems. This thread was never meant for them. This post is about those of us who have problems with them. I am happy you have no problems, but many of us do, and this thread is for us. | ||||||
| Gritz posted 2004 Sep 23 17:54 | ||||||
| I've had enough trouble with paper labels that I quit using them and went first to just using a Sharpee, and later to printable discs. Probably 30% out of the first 100 I applied labels to would stumble, pixelate, and lockup at the end. And I didn't realize this until sometime later when I would play one of them to it's conclusion. Now I burn, and check for errors with Nero's CD-DVD Speed before I print the label on them .... no sense wasting the ink on a bad disk. I print with an Epson R300 on only Ritek G04s and Taiyo Yuden's 4x -Rs, or 8x +Rs at this time. Even with recent Ritek's I had a bad series in the last stack .... so the media hasn't evolved to any kind of reliable consistency! But I have increased my success rate by doing the above. | ||||||
| Halm posted 2004 Sep 23 18:00 | ||||||
| Tommyknocker........
Excuse me, but I don't see where this thread is only for people who have problems with labels. It appears that labels are only a problem for some...many others, including myself, have labeled hundreds of DVDs and thousands of CDRs and experienced no problems. Instead of whining that this thread is for those who are having problems with labels, why don't you just stop using them? You know...if it hurts, then stop doing it... I suspect the answer is similar to that of which media to use...we all know the combination of hardware/software/firmware/media is different from individual to individual and sometimes even the same combinatin will work for one person and not another. Perhaps the combination of media/label/player is variable enough to account for some folks having problems and others not. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Sep 23 18:07 | ||||||
You see, my esteemed colleague, I had problems with labeled disks, I found a solution, and shared it. You had no problems, can't see why anyone has the problems and suggest we do not use them in the first place. Your solution is similar to telling an unwed mother not to get pregnant in the first place. A viable solution in the past, but has no use to her in the here and now. | ||||||
| Halm posted 2004 Sep 23 18:26 | ||||||
| Tommyknocker,
I'm puzzled....how in the hell is suggesting that disks not be labeled if the labels cause problems, rather than continue to label them and try to find very elusive causes for the problems, anything like telling a pregnant woman she should't have spread in the first place? Give me a break! There is a difference between STOP DOING IT and YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE! Secondly, who suggested you give anything up? If you don't use sticky labels....fine. Who cares? Thirdly, I suggested that the problem may be a combination of variables...hence the fact some have problems, the majority don't. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Sep 23 19:33 | ||||||
| Try not to worry about it too much. Just be happy you don't have labeling problems. Rest assured, mine went away when I started using core sticky labels, and they work just fine. Regardless of what caused the problem, my solution is feasible and esthetically plaesing. | ||||||
| Capmaster posted 2004 Sep 23 20:11 | ||||||
| Never have labeled DVDs. I print an insert for the jewel case and leave it at that. I figure I can remember that the DVD inside the box matches what the box label says :D :wink: | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Sep 28 14:14 | ||||||
I too am a member of the " bad luck label club". I have Memorex Matte 3 in 1 labels, used on different brands of media all result in skipping at then end. However, my neighbor always buys Verbatim DVD+R's, and no probs with the same label. Is it possible that different brands of media can handle the labels better? Anyway at least these 3 in 1 labels have a core to print on.
NVOGEL, I am totally with ya, I have already emailed Memorex & Fellowes NEATO to let them know what their labels are doing to my DVD's. I recommend that any and all that read this thread email our label manufacturer with the same complaints of freezing, pixelating, & non-playable discs. ***Update*** Fellowes NEATO emailed me back this was there response:
| ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Sep 28 15:22 | ||||||
| Hs any one tried using the mini disc labels on a full size DVD? A lil more than the core labels. Please anyone's thoughts. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Sep 29 15:17 | ||||||
| ***Update***
Memorex emailed me back with this response:
| ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Sep 29 15:52 | ||||||
| I guess Memorex listens to me... | ||||||
| jimmalenko posted 2004 Sep 30 06:16 | ||||||
| Canon i865 straight onto printables for me.
A few guys at work bought burners after I mentioned backing up your own DVDs and kept coming to me saying they were having playback problems. I asked one bloke to bring in a couple of discs that exhibited the behaviour and a couple of blanks from the same spindle of blanks if possible. Sure enough the backups had sticky labels on them. I did a disc-to-hd-to-disc disc copy in Nero back to the blanks. I told them to try the newly-burned copies and sure enough, the problems went away. They both thought I was a DVD god :lol: (sorry MackemX :wink: :lol:) | ||||||
| RickTheRed posted 2004 Sep 30 14:45 | ||||||
| R200 with printable disks work fine for me.
Final look is often better than the original if I take the time to finetune the picture with Photoshop. And it looks better than labels. And the R200 is cheap! And it prints "like labs" photos. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Oct 02 15:59 | ||||||
| I think Fellowes NEATO is gonna send me some labels :) | ||||||
| jntaylor63 posted 2004 Oct 02 17:57 | ||||||
| Just use Hub / Core labels.
They are cheap (SureThing's at 19.00 for 520) and are at the most center to reduce wobble. I have been using them for all of my DVD back-ups without issue. You have just enough room to add text and even a logo or two. What I do is scan the orginal dvd art and then use it as the back ground for my hub label. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Oct 02 22:49 | ||||||
| Saves ink too lol | ||||||
| bryansand posted 2004 Oct 03 03:12 | ||||||
| I'm having my own potential label problem, but I'm not sure. I have been backing up my entire Twilight Zone collection (43 discs), and I decided to put them all on TY's to ensure good quality. I have always used Ritek G03's and G04's prior. Well, the discs all had freeze ups ironically at about the same point of each episode (4 episodes per disc, and they all freeze). To isolate the problem, I copied the data from one of the TY's to a G04, and voila, no freezing! I had labels on both discs applied with a CD Stomper. I think the following may be the cause. . . You can physically feel that the TY's are thinner and more flimsy than the Riteks, so I think the extra weight of the label affects the TY's much more so and thus is causing the lockups. Does this sound logical? I don't know what else would explain some of the best media out there having more problems than lesser media! Btw, I'm using a Liteon 811S DVD-RW drive. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Oct 03 12:51 | ||||||
| What's the best method one should use to safely remove an existing CD/DVD Label? | ||||||
| Capmaster posted 2004 Oct 03 13:31 | ||||||
Soak in warm, soapy water overnight. Not hot. The label will soften enough that you can gently peel or scrape it off with something like a wooden spoon. Never scrape with anything harder than that. Then let it sit on a paper towel for a few hours and air-dry. Don't rub very hard with the paper towel as many are abrasive :wink: | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2004 Oct 03 17:38 | ||||||
I use Goo Gone: http://store.yahoo.com/always-organized/googone.html Coat the label with Goo Gone and wait 10 or 15 minutes. The label and most of the glue will come off easily. Use a little more Goo Gone and your finger tip to rub off the remaining spots of glue. Finally a quick wash with mild dishwashing detergent and water. Blot dry with a soft cloth or paper towel. No rubbing! I've heard of people using WD-40 but I've never tried that... | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Oct 03 21:15 | ||||||
| It doesnt hurt to fully submerse the entire DVD?
and junkmalle i will look into that Goo Gone as well. | ||||||
| Capmaster posted 2004 Oct 04 10:10 | ||||||
Not if it's a good DVD, no. There's a glue seal between layers and the glue isn't water-soluble. If you've got ultra-cheap media like Princo that sometimes delaminate, then it might get in, but if that's the case you've got bigger problems than just labels. The quality stuff will do just fine in a pan of warm water :wink: | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Oct 04 12:40 | ||||||
| Thanks for all the replys.
Fellowes NEATO claims they have resolved this issue with their newer labels. Anyone vouche for them? | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Oct 05 08:59 | ||||||
| I have just received a FREE pack of 20 Glossy labels from Fellowes NEATO because of taking NVOGEL's advice earlier in this thread & complaing about the damage to my media & my waste of time & ink. I urge all to complain. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Oct 08 12:35 | ||||||
| Complaining several times to these label companies works.
Memorex finally replied back to me with this:
I still urge all to email these companies & complain complain complain! Oh & junkmalle, I took your advice with Goo Gone, can't beat that stuff. I found it at a local BigLots for $1.29 for a 4 oz bottle. Beats soap & water & scrubbing. | ||||||
| kbuegel posted 2004 Oct 12 13:11 | ||||||
| OK Folks, I have new info on the label problems (I think):
I have had excellent success reviving unplayable DVD's by just peeling off the label. So, it occured to me to test how much of the label was required to be peeled off before the disk starts to play normally. The answer is that in all but one disk I tried, I only needed to peel off about 1/3 to 1/2 of the label to make the disk work fine. And, amazingly, it did not matter if I peeled the label off of one side of the disk leaving it potentially badly out of balance. In a couple dozen test cases, I peeled half the label off, splitting it right down the middle through the ring. This should technically leave the disk badly unbalanced, but in fact, they all worked great. Not only did the previously unplayable disk come back to life, but there was absolutely no problem with playback with just half the label attached. I also tried various methods of cutting out wedges of the label, or just slicing groves in the label to reduce the tension. Of the 30 or so that I tried, only 1 disk was finicky enough to require the entire label to be removed before playing correctly. And, in ALL cases, removing the label revived the DVD. So there was no need to recopy them. So this should lay to rest any speculation about imbalanced disks causing playback issues. The label placement has absolutely nothing to do with the problems. It does seem to be related to the heat generated by the laser. This could by why different players react differently to the same DVD, since laser intensity and cooling methods vary greatly among DVD players. Also, it certainly seems possible that the paper label simply holds the heat on the DVD and perhaps the DVD can't dissipate the heat correctly due to the paper, which is what causes the playback problems. With plastic labels, this may not be the case. Whether its related to adhesives constricting and deforming the disk, or some other heat related issue, I'm not sure. But its definitely NOT a balance issue. As for newer, thinner labels- I did buy a pack of Avery matte white labels that were very thin. I did not think much of it at the time, and actually the labels had trouble releasing from the backing because of the thinness (avery's use little tabs and the tabs would break off much too easily). However, these thin-labeled DVD's are mixed with my other DVD's and all are slowly becoming unplayable. So, I'm not sure that the new thin label makes a difference. And, as most of you know, it usually takes 2 months for the playback problems to start since its related to the adhesive dry time. So just cuz you slap a new label on a DVD and it works immediately does not mean you've solved the problem. My latest attempt at a labeling solution was to purchase clear labels which are plastic instead of paper. These are very thin, and probably won't cause troubles. However, since the label is clear, there is no white background which is what printers are calibrated for. Thus the labels print out very dark since white is normally not a color that the printer produces. When putting a one of these clear labels on the dvd, it looks like a film negative, and is much too dark. Its interesting looking, but not very functional. So does anyone have a suggestion on a printer that actually lays down white ink? Seems like there must be some that do. And its not something my regular printer is capable of. Mixing all the colors produces black, not white. And, before anyone suggests it, yes I could put a clear label over a blank white printable DVD. In fact, I plan to try this in the future. But the problem I'm trying to solve now is what to do with the 300+ DVD's I currently own with peeled-off labels that have logos and ink pen writing on them which needs to be covered by an opaque label. So I'm open to suggestion on how to best re-label these DVD's. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Oct 12 13:38 | ||||||
| I have noticed that the newer Felloews Neato Gloss Labels that I purchased sometime back & put on about 10 DVDR's & they are still playable after several months of storage. Maybe consider trying them. I know to stay away from Memorex Lables for sure. I am stuck with a 120 pk plus DVD's I need to peel the labels off of. Another thing u may wanna consider is using Core/Hub Labels.
Oh & I believe the issue with the playback problem is a heat issue, nothing to do with balance. http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=952241&highlight=#952241 | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2004 Oct 12 13:40 | ||||||
Did it occur to you that different players might have different problems? That said, I suspect most of the time the cause is the labels warping the disks because of the different coefficient of heat expansion of plastic and paper. That is what some of the label manufactures have admitted. It just bugs me when someone runs a few experiments on a few labels and a few players and makes blanket claims to have solved the problem for all players and all labels everywhere. | ||||||
| kbuegel posted 2004 Oct 13 11:49 | ||||||
| Yes, well, blanket statements have been made all throughout this thread, and they are very annoying and most are incorrect.
I can tell you for certain that the playback problems from labels have absolutely nothing to do with balance. Unbalanced disks play just fine in almost any player, and putting labels off-center or adding partial labels to one side of the disk does not affect playback in any way. The heat generated by the lasers on DVD players is significant, and as media gets more durable, the heat rating on lasers has been going up and up. However, I'm not convinced that label shrinkage has anything to do with the playback issues either, since it does not seem likely that a cool DVD could heat up in less than 3 seconds, shrink the label, and thus become unplayable. So here are the facts: 1) removal of labels makes unplayable DVD's work fine (or sometimes partial removal of the label). Also if the gummy residue left over from peeling off the label is left on the DVD, it does not affect playback. 2) unplayable DVD's often start having problems at around 2/3rd of the way through, but usually it gets worse over time and may extend to the entire disk. 3) in most cases, playback problems don't occur for weeks or months. So disks that are burned, labeled and tested may play fine for many days before playback issues start. Or, in some cases, the playback problems start immediately. 4) All brands of media are affected by this labeling problem, including expensive brands, cheap brands, DVD+R's, -R's, RW's, 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x etc. CD's also can have this issue but it is rare. 5) Paper labels cause this issue, not plastic labels. Full-face or partial face labels both have these problems. All brands of paper labels have these problems: Avery, Memorex, Neato, etc. The only paper labels that seem immune from this issue are hub labels (small labels covering only the unplayable clear center of the DVD). 6) Different DVD players react differently to the playback problems. A few DVD players will play these DVD's with no trouble at all, but most will not. The same disk played in multiple DVD players will have different intensity of playback problems on each player, although in most cases the area about 2/3rds through the disk is the worst. 7) Disks are unplayable within seconds of being exposed to the laser. Some computer DVD readers can read from the disk if allowed to retry many times, or let the dvd sit idle (cool off) and then retry. 8) Visual inspection does not reveal disk warpage or label shrinkage, or labels peeling up. 9) The labels do not interfere with loading mechanisms on players or DVD's getting stuck in the player. 10) Label manufacturers have released thinner versions of paper labels in an attempt to fix this issue. Nobody is sure yet if they work. In my own personal experiments, I've found a few more things- * Slicing the labels to remove tension does not help, but removing large chunks of the label does fix the problems, even if the removed chunks leave the disk unbalanced. * Burning the DVD with labels already attached makes no difference. Same issues occur. * Copying data from an unplayable labeled DVD can usually be accomplished by letting the DVD sit idle for 15 minutes in the player and then starting the read process in the same spot that was previously unreadable. But within a few seconds the DVD becomes unreadable again. So, based on these facts, I think its safe to conclude a few things: 1) This is not a balance problem, or caused by wobble or off-centered labels. Nor does the weight of the ink affect the balance. 2) This is not related to media quality or label quality. 3) This is not related to ink bleed-through on the label. 4) This in not a result of chemical deterioration of the top layer of the DVD by the adhesives or the ink, or sharpies. My GUESS as to what the problem is: A) The back of the paper label may be reflective enough and flat enough to cause the laser to seek to it and attempt to read it, rather than reading the actual data on the DVD. The adhesive drying may be the catalyst for this effect. B) The thickness of DVD could be a problem. Perhaps the laser is attempting to focus on the wrong depth within the DVD if its overall thickness is too great (paper labels are fairly thick). C) Shrinkage of the paper labels and/or adhesives caused by heat creates tension on the upper surface of the DVD causing it to warp or deflect during playback. (least likely, in my opinion, but still possible). D) Paper label causes heat retention. The DVD cannot dissipate the heat from the laser correctly, and the media heats up and becomes unplayable. DVD media over a certain temperature is unreadable. This could occur just in the localized area of the DVD that is being read, not requiring it to heat up the whole DVD. Or, a combination of the above. | ||||||
| Solarflair posted 2004 Oct 16 00:23 | ||||||
| what about inkjet printable dvds? how does that fit into the picture. is printable dvd media suspected to be prone to that kind of theoretical errors as well?? | ||||||
| SCDVD posted 2004 Oct 16 02:25 | ||||||
| This is the most amazing thread I have ever read. There are endless reasons expressed about the cause of this problem - and they are all wrong. Here it is boys and girls. This problem is caused by contraction of the label that bows the disc slightly. This may not seem like much but it is enough to cause the disk to become "out of focus" to the laser in the player. The problem varies by the brand of label, the stiffness of the disk, temperature, humidity but the very, Very, VERY worst thing you can do is to apply a label fresh off of the printer while it is still damp from the ink. As it dries, it shrinks quite a bit and bows the disk. Now for you knuckle draggers, don't bother to hold the disk up to the light and squint while you attempt to see the bow. You won't see a thing. It only takes a few microns to defocus the laser on the player. Some players are already at the edge of read problems with recordable media. The reflectivity of recordable media is different from pressed discs. Players that weren't designed with DVD recordable media in mind have problems reading a recorded disc. So any little variation is enough to cause outright failure to play on these players. This isn't another "what do you think about this?" postulation. I am a drive development engineer and I know wherof I speak. So pardon my little interuption. Please carry on with you wild notions. | ||||||
| Solarflair posted 2004 Oct 16 02:44 | ||||||
Would you know if inkjet printable media are bound to the same fate? how do they fit into this equasion? | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Oct 16 03:36 | ||||||
| ||||||
| SCDVD posted 2004 Oct 16 14:55 | ||||||
| For Solarflair: Printable media is a great way to go. It isn't affected the way labels are. The only minor drawback is they should not be allowed to get wet because it will make the ink smear.
For Tommyknocker: I don't know what you are tryng to say. I didn't invent the problem nor did I invent the solution. I have no doubt that others are aware of the problem. I was simply sharing a fact that is clear that many don't know. Many of us don't have the time to read every comment in every thread in this forum as you apparantly do. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Oct 16 16:10 | ||||||
You're the one who stated categorically no one but you had the right reason why labels cause playback problems. I was only correcting your gross oversight. You have the right reason, but so have som many other gurus before you. I say it again: you are a day light and a dollar short with your explanation. You're the one who said everyone who posted before you were wrong:
Do I make myself ant clearer?:) | ||||||
| kbuegel posted 2004 Oct 23 01:19 | ||||||
| Well, the really big question is what to do now. Assuming you have a bunch of DVD's with bad labels, can you do anything with them??
I'm going to attempt to peel off all the labels on my DVD's, which will revive them so that I don't have to write new ones. But what, if anything, should I put on them. These are store-bought DVD's with logo's and sharpie writing on them, so they are not very pretty. I would really like to find a way to label them that would not affect playback. And, no, I don't want to do a hub label. I want to cover up all the logo's and sharpie writing. Has anyone ever tried actually applying paint to a DVD in order to create a white background, and then use a clear label? I'm thinking maybe an enamel paint or epoxy paint would stick to the plastic ok, and also take a plastic label over it. Then, as a final touch, I could spray it with the sealer/fixer from the craft store to waterproof it. Seems like a lot of work, but its better than recopying all those DVD's. | ||||||
| Solarflair posted 2004 Oct 23 01:46 | ||||||
| although it may damage playback. that will occur more often with crappy media. And the best chance of it happening is if it started to peel. All other ways of going bad , chances are slim to none.
When you drive a car. everyone has a chance of running head to head with a mack truck and get annihilated. people still drive dont they? Ive used labels on my dvds with no problems, ive burn dvds for about 9 months now. Not saying its best way to go. But i think the chances of going bad is highly exaggerated. If it shows any signs of playback faulties, make a quick copy of it. =) | ||||||
| kbuegel posted 2004 Oct 25 10:47 | ||||||
| I've been burning DVD's for about a year myself. The label problem is not random chance, its dependent on your DVD player being able to read labeled DVD's. Some players work fine with them, others do not. In my case, 100% of my labeled DVD's are now unplayable by my home DVD player and my computer DVD recorder, however when I originally burned them, they were all perfectly fine (tested with NERO after writing, and played in home player). None of the labels have peeled or bubbled, nor is anything phsically wrong with them. And I have always used name-brand DVD's. I've never burned a ritek or opti-whatever, I always use HP, Verbatim, Memorex, etc. The good news is that if I peel off the label, it revives the disk, 100% of the time. So its definitely the label, not the DVD writer or damage to the DVD itself.
So, in my opinion, the only random chance is what type of DVD player you have. Beyond that, all paper labels will fail eventually. (possible exception for labels manufactured in last month or two now that companies are aware of the problems). Or, its possible that somehow you have stored your written DVD's in a way that prevented the labels from shrinking and causing distortion. In that case, you'll just have to wait a bit longer to see if it will happen to you too! Perhaps you should get your oldest DVD's and lay them out in a cool DRY dark place. After a few weeks of sitting in a dry cool place (not stacked or the labels won't be exposed to air), see if there are any playback problems. So far, the leading theory is label shrinkage, so that would probably be affected by humidity and heat. | ||||||
| mpack posted 2004 Oct 25 12:34 | ||||||
| This is a complete guess, but...
Are you guys familiar with something called a bimetal strip? It means two strips of different metals bonded together sandwich style. It has the interesting property that if you heat it up the strip curls, because the two metals have different expansion coefficients. Maybe something similar is going on with the disk and the label. You would see the problem if your DVD player happens to run rather hot... Maybe to test this you could try (carefully!) segmenting the label with a razor blade after application. Then the label should mostly expand and contract with the disk, and the remaining "bimetal effect" should hopefully be insignificant... | ||||||
| Peterdragin posted 2004 Oct 26 10:57 | ||||||
| Just a little comment from a newbie here, but an old computer dude.
About taking the labels off DVD’s SIMPLE GREEN works the best, most grocery stores have this in the cleaning section, and places like Wal Mart, just make a little tray out of tin foil and immerse the disc and 20 to 30 minutes the label and the glue is off. Warm water and your fingers clean the disc squeaky clean. It also does NOT remove the sharpie marks. (Make sure you wipe the disc dry with paper towels, I have a well for water and it water spots if you don’t wipe them dry. I have tried painting discs and printing them, Plastic Kote white primer works but takes 24 hours or so for the ink to dry on them. Printing looks good but I don’t recommend this option, it’s a crude way and the sharpie writing comes through the primer. The white primer did not hurt the disc and plasti kote is what I use for priming my NASCAR models, so any paint you use to paint the model will not affect the plastic. (Another little note, Simple Green also takes the paint off models without hurting the model). The Epson R00 printer is cheap and the ink lasts forever when just printing discs, Epson has refurbished R200’s for 77 bucks and free shipping. Ink is cheap for this printer anyway less then 6 dollars a cartridge on the net. I have printed over 125 discs on mine and the ink is still only half gone. Epson warranty is still 12 months on refurbished printers. I went to prodisc 03’s and a R200 and can’t be happier with the results, no more skipping and freeze ups. I just recopy the discs and give the sharpie marked discs to friends. Prodisc pintables are less than 50 cents a disc, and the R200 does a Great job with them. And my Plextor 712A and NEC 1300a just love them. | ||||||
| bigmac posted 2004 Nov 06 15:34 | ||||||
| query. if putting stickers on dvds make them freeze, jump ect, has anyone tried putting the label on first then burning the dvd? if sois it better or still the same? | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Nov 17 16:14 | ||||||
| Has anyone tried putting something on top of the sticker? for instance spray some of that clear coat in a spray can. Would this work? Any thoughts? I may have to test it. | ||||||
| SCDVD posted 2004 Nov 17 16:57 | ||||||
| Mpack's post on Oct. 25 is precisely correct and is the ONLY reason for the problem that some have reported. If the labels shrinks enough to cause the outer edge of the media to curl up slightly (not visible to the eye), the laser in the player cannot focus properly. This cases the playback problems.
Labels aside, this lack of flatness is one of the major problems with inferior DVD media. You can see this with the following procedure. Find a room with a flat edge fluorescent fixture on the ceiling. Position yourself at a desk or table under the florescent fixture. Place a DVD disk on the table and move your head back and forth so that you can see the edge of the florescent fixture reflect on the DVD disk. As you move your head back and forth, you should see only a small amount of angular distortion of the reflection of the fluorescent fixture on the disk. On badly made media, this angular distortion is much greater. This problem becomes even more critical at higher recording speeds (16X). Controlling media flatness was one of the technical problems that needed to be solved by the media manufacturers in order to make reliable 16X media. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Nov 17 17:16 | ||||||
Where are you getting the Refurbished Printer, the ink at that price, & the printable DVD's?? | ||||||
| Peterdragin posted 2004 Nov 17 21:21 | ||||||
| The printers are right on Epson's web site. Here's the link http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ClearSave.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
Printers are shipped out of Indianapolis, IN Ink is at www.tylermartin.com I have been buying ink from them for years and never a problem. | ||||||
| mowermanEd posted 2004 Nov 21 21:27 | ||||||
| It's sooooooo typical. I wish I'd of known about this forum sooner. I looked at an Epson R200 printer a couple of weeks ago. After moistining my finger and rubbing it on the printed CD that was on display and seeing the ink smear, I decided that sticky labels were the way to go. So I went out and bought 100 glossy labels. I thought that the freezing problems and pixelization of my backups were because of bad media or burning problems but after reading this I think I made the wrong decision. So I went to Epsons site and ordered a refurbished R200 and await it's arrival on the 24th. For those that wondered if it made a difference if the label was applied before the burn, no it doesn't. I've had freezes with labels applied both before and after the burn. | ||||||
| biffle posted 2004 Nov 21 21:39 | ||||||
| I have had problems like this and only the ones WITH the labels are at fault. I'm glad i'm not the only one. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Nov 21 21:42 | ||||||
| I don't think you should post the results here. If you read most of this thread, so will see there are people who made hundreds of thousands of labeled disks for hundreds of thousands of years, and never had one fail. :lol: :lol: :lol: Core labels. 'Nuff said. | ||||||
| BIGTIME posted 2004 Nov 21 22:06 | ||||||
| Guy's I have a Neato cd stomper device and it has a center button device in it bust it on the sidewalk or wherever, and get the tan button out of it. It will be easier to apply your labels with just the center piece instead of the whole bulky device which may wrinkle your label. I have labeled 820 disc's with no problem with playback issues. Hope this helps. | ||||||
| Tommyknocker posted 2004 Nov 21 22:12 | ||||||
:lol: :lol: :lol: | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Nov 24 13:32 | ||||||
| OK, here is my recent news on this situation. Fellowes Neato claims that have fixed the problem, & because I complained, they sent me a replacement pack of Labels & stated that the ones I was using were old labels & the problem had not been fixed with them. I tried the newer label, no probs at all.
But on the other hand, I bought some Memorex labels. I complained to them, they know of the problem with the playback issues & was not able to send me replacements, cause they havent fixed the problem yet, but they still sell the labels claiming that they are for DVD's & CD's. What a lie! Anywho, Memorex did refund me check of 11.99 (OH BOY!) & gave me an apology, but they still sell their labels, so everyone beware of Memorex labels for now. | ||||||
| mowermanEd posted 2004 Nov 24 13:48 | ||||||
| My refurbished ($77 + free shipping) Epson R200 printer arrived today. Guess what?..... My disc labeling problems are over!!!! The results I'm getting with this printer look almost identical to OEM pressed discs. My only worry is keeping them dry so they don't smudge. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Nov 24 13:51 | ||||||
| How long does it take for a printed disc to dry? I am really considering a R200 myself. | ||||||
| Bodyslide posted 2004 Nov 24 13:55 | ||||||
| My Discs from the Epson 900 are dry within a few minutes. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Nov 24 14:00 | ||||||
| I'm gonna start a new thread for this question:
http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=245893 | ||||||
| mowermanEd posted 2004 Nov 24 14:01 | ||||||
| Dudeman,
I just printed a disc and then burned a movie to it imediately after it was printed without any problems. Apparently Epson is just covering their ass by telling people to wait 24hrs. | ||||||
| trickyman posted 2004 Nov 24 14:07 | ||||||
coat 'em with a little krylon clear spray paint, problem sloved...
It depends. i have an R200 and use prodisc silver inkjet printables. Normally i just print a simple title which drys pretty much immediately. On the rare occasion i do a full color print i usually give it a few hours to completely dry... | ||||||
| zero|fade posted 2004 Nov 26 19:30 | ||||||
| For those of you wondering about getting labels off, here's the mthod I've been using. Just slit the label from the centre to the outside edge with a very sharp knife. I use an Olfa, then use a blow drier to loosen the glue and slide the knife sideways under the slit to start peeling the label. If you keep the label nice and warm you can get the whole thing off with minal to no glue left behind. A bit of Goo-Gone will get rid of any traces. | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2004 Nov 27 10:17 | ||||||
No need for the knife or the chance of possibly damaging the top surface. Just use Goo-Gone on a cotton ball or what have you, smear it all over the label, let it set for about 10 mins, & the label should peel right off. If you still have parts that stick, hit those spots with Goo-Gone. | ||||||
| chunkT posted 2004 Dec 08 12:50 | ||||||
HAHAHA WHAT THE @!*(&@(*!&@! :shock: // I see neither the humor nor the point to this post. // While we at videohelp.com have a good humor, and jab at each other, // this does not seem to fit into the norm. Seems more like instigation. // Not worth a warning, but worth mentioning it's inappropriateness. // This is in response to complaints in the complaints thread. // -- moderator lordsmurf Then you need to get your head outta your arse and lighten up. Anyone who goes to lengths of painting cd/dvd so they may print on them seems a little wacky. So if you cant laugh at that or seem to think it was meant in an offensive way then I have some .45 calibur asprin you can take to make your miserable life end sooner then to drag it on in anal retentive moderator lifestyle. You are in breach of the forum rules and are being issued with a formal warning. / Moderator lordsmurf That sort of attitude is going to get you BANNED. Talk back to a mod again like that and you will be taking a hike. / Moderator offline | ||||||
| chunkT posted 2004 Dec 09 10:54 | ||||||
| Nice.. | ||||||
| Captain315 posted 2004 Dec 09 12:12 | ||||||
| Personally, I think the idea of being able to coat a disk is a viable alternative. Many of us have a stack (sometimes hundreds) of DVD's with problems occuring from labels. I see no sense in removing and placing another label on the disc and having the same problem again. Spraying on a primer of sorts would certainly be a better solution than replacing the discs with new ones. Guess I will try some experimenting and see what might be done. | ||||||
| DFranz1 posted 2004 Dec 09 23:50 | ||||||
| Since alot of us have a ton a non printable DVDs and alot of labels, would it help at all if we put the a blank label on first and then put that into a R200 printer? I am thinking the same result would eventually happen but I am just curious to see what you guys thought. | ||||||
| Captain315 posted 2004 Dec 10 05:30 | ||||||
| I think we've all tried everything, including that, to find the cause. I read an advertisement from Fellowes, the maker of Neato labels and they say they've solved the problem. I guess that's to be seen but at least one manufacturer has publically admitted that the problem exist. I ordered some for the two hundred or so non-printables I have on the shelf. I guess I'll find out. :-) | ||||||
| Espen posted 2004 Dec 17 17:29 | ||||||
| I'm well aware of the problems that labels might cause. I myself have run through lots of problem using labels in my early days of DVD burning. A couple of years back when i was completly new to this dvd burning thing I just bought the media that was cheap, like prodisc and Princo. I almost always run into playback problem after labeld these discs
and a few of them didn't even play correct before I had labeld them. Some of them did work after i labeld them, but a month later or so they show signs of playback problems. When I read and learnt alot more of DVD burning I figured that invest some extra money in quality media would give me much better results. So I decided to start using more expensive media like media with RICOHJPNR dye and once I did so the playback problem got more unusual. However some labeld discs stil gave me playback problem. So far I had used a burner that handled + media only. Now I thought it was time for a new burner that did handle - media to. So i bought a LG GSA-4040B burner. I had read much about ritekG04 so I decide to gave that media a try.I orderd about 6 different brands of media that did use ritekG04 dye and my test winner of these brands was Datasafe. So I decide to give Datasafe a real try. I Orderd a 100pack. A few month later I hade burnt all of them and labeld most of them. I did try them in atleast 10 different players and no disc did show playback problems. Well there was one or two, but it was related to dirt, they did play fine after i cleaned the surface. I have sticked to Datasafe ever since and they still work perfect no problems what so ever. Concerning the peel of theory some people claims to; I have labeld media for a couple of years and not a singel label dvd have shown any tendency to peel of. And if they haven't done that so far I'm pretty sure they will stay on in the future to. Conclussion of my experiences are: sure label can screw up the playback on dvds, but if you stick to quality media and quality labels they will just play fine. If you don't belive me just try Datasafe 4x dvd-r they wouldn't give you any palyback problems! | ||||||
| engelm posted 2004 Dec 19 15:43 | ||||||
| After reviewing this thread and some others like it I decided to do a little research. I use Fuji DVD+R disks. The package states DO NOT apply labels to either side of the disk. It also states that only oil based pens should be used to label the disk. Alcohol should never be used on the disk. I have always used Sharpie permanent markers. Those markers are alcohol based ink. That might explain why my disks begin to fail after a couple of years of use. I checked the Sharpie web site and found that they make oil based markers, "Sharpie Paint Markers". My take on all this. Follow the manufactures guidlines and used oil based markers instead of alcohol. | ||||||
| mpack posted 2004 Dec 20 12:22 | ||||||
I don't understand what possible harm can be done by writing - with pretty much anything you care to use (within reason) - on the non-read side of a single sided disk. Of course, some kinds of pen simply don't work on the glossy CD or DVD surface, but that certainly won't cause read errors! The whole point of an alcohol based ink is that the alcohol is volatile: it completely evaporates in seconds, there is no possibility of it hanging around and (assuming it could) eating into the disk like an acid! So, I don't know what those instructions are referring to... | ||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2004 Dec 20 12:25 | ||||||
No. You're writing on the plastic upper layer. That cannot do anything at all to the disc. You could cover the whole thing in black marker, and it would not matter. | ||||||
| Mavrick posted 2005 Jan 09 08:00 | ||||||
Do you have a link to the exact type of ProDisc you buy? | ||||||
| dudeman316 posted 2005 Jan 10 15:10 | ||||||
| there are quite a few places that have good printable discs. Shop4tech, Rima, & American-digital are a few I have shopped from. | ||||||
| akagi posted 2005 Jan 11 12:27 | ||||||
| I have done my own experiment with Labels. I burnt a series of small MPEG 1 files onto a DVD. Granted this DVD+R was not of the highest quality being a BulkHQ disk but having done the burn I had absolutely no read errors doing a full surface scan with DVDINFOPRO. I then used a label on the disk placing such as centrally as it was possible to do. Now I would emphasise here that there was a LIMITED amount of ink actually on the label with such only reading 'DISK ONE' in two locations, nothing more, for identification purposes only.
I then IMMEDIATELY reused DVDINFOPRO to carry out a surface scan. (I emphasise the 'immediately' caveat as there would not have been chance for any glue/ink to dye contamination). Doing this then showed read errors. However then going back to play some of these MPEG1 files did not create issues despite the fact one would think it would. In conclusion my take on things is that applying a label unbalances the disk, not excessively so, but enough that if the disk has to remain running, such as if a movie in a DVD Player is being watched or a surface scan being run, the vibrations build up and up (through resonance) until they create read problems. However, if smaller files such as my MPEG1's above are played or copied across to the PC the issue does not occur - the disk slows down before the vibrations build up to the critical point. If it is resonance this would explain why some people are having problems with DVD's and other aren't. Some might be working with data so they have a stop start read profile whilst others aren't. More importantly this resonance build up is HIGHLY environment dictated - if the distance between the disk surface say and the loading tray (the nearest relecting object) is of just the right distance such that any vibration is reflected back and amplified (what resonance is) then the critical point will be reached very quickly. If however the distance is such that the vibration is cancelled out by the reflection back then the critical point may never be reached. For anybody who is having label issues then it makes sense to try a different DVD player if they can or alternatively try a slightly different bit rate (for movies) such that the disk speed is slightly different (meaning a different vibration amplitude) which might stop this vibration build up. It might not be inks, glues, label type or whatever but a function of pure luck. For my part, recognising the above, I stopped using labels on my DVD movies but would think they should be ok on data DVD's. Just my thoughts. | ||||||
| Bubblevision posted 2005 Jan 31 06:41 | ||||||
| I'm printing my Ritek G04 printables on my Epson R210 and then I lacquer with Pressit Sprayfix. It makes a nice job but I don't know just how waterproof and robust they are afterwards. I'm going to try with bog-standard acrylic lacquer from the hardware shop too. | ||||||
| monkeyking posted 2005 Feb 01 21:23 | ||||||
| No more labels here. Disks I labelled last summer are now showing jitter. I can't read data backup disks reliably. For data, I always re-read them right after burning, so I knew the burns were good.
When I look at the disks, most are bowed concave toward the label. Removing the labels fixed everything. They also were flat again. | ||||||
| dewaynespaw posted 2005 Feb 02 15:33 | ||||||
| I was having trouble at first with labeled DVD'S, but I bought a new DVD burner and I haven't had a problem since. I use the Memorex high gloss labels and the image covers the entire label and they look absolutely professional. It's hard to tell it is a label The only difference I see is my DVD-R's are only 20 minutes of music videos that I send out to fair committees and potential clients. I have not had any of my clients complain so far about DVD-R's I have sent them not working.
How much does a good printable DVD-R run for an inkjet printer. I know the printable CD/DVD printers (Epson is the only brand of printer I will use) start at about $100.00. Just wondering if it would be worth the change. A friend of mine sent a printable CD to me and I have to say it looked terrible. That could be the printer he was using too. Anyone have any suggestions on media types. | ||||||
| Bodyslide posted 2005 Feb 02 15:41 | ||||||
| Not to threadjack:
The epson 200 prints dvd's and cd's very well. It all depends on what the original image is you are using. If the image is a low quality image it will llok bad. Here is also a link to a CIS system for the Epson 200 that will save money on ink. http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=241206 | ||||||
| Xylob the Destroyer posted 2005 Feb 22 18:35 | ||||||
| i used to make labels for all of my DVD's, but i don't do it anymore
i didn't stop because it was causing problems tho... i just got lazy i now use a Sharpie to label my DVD's :D | ||||||
| pixiemom posted 2005 Feb 24 22:34 | ||||||
| Hi everyone,
I'm glad I haven't yet created & labelled any DVDs yet - that was going to start happening in a few weeks after I upgrade my computer and install the DVD recorder drive! But I do have a lot of CDs with labels. So far I haven't noticed any problems, but I haven't checked the oldest ones yet. My question is - for those of you with an Epson R200 or R300 - would it be possible to use Durabrite (pigment) ink instead of regular Dye ink? Durabrite ink is waterproof and would completely eliminate the smudge problem, from what I understand. It's supposed to be used in the C80-series and the Pixma series, but I don't know.... are the engines similar enough that one could substitute Durabrite ink in the R200/300? I have an Epson R200 (still in tne box, waiting for me to get either a CIS or refillable cartridges), and planned on printing my future CDs and DVDs with it, but I would be interested in some ideas on how to keep the ink from smudging. | ||||||
| digitalwiz posted 2005 Feb 25 09:59 | ||||||
| I have 25 DVD with full label printed in a inkjet printer... i can't read in any dvd drive or player i tried. DVD maxell, label Fellowes Neato. I peel off 1 label from the dvd to see if this can work but no, it's remain with the same problem... Can you help me? ah the dvd's was recorded like 18 months ago with a Panasonic DMR-E20 | ||||||
| rebarlow posted 2005 Feb 25 10:35 | ||||||
| Two words:
Hub Labels | ||||||
| BCAESE posted 2005 Mar 03 15:08 | ||||||
| After doing an intense test the majority are right DO NOT PUT LABELS ON YOUR DVDRS!!
Especially if you movie takes up 4GB! If you moive is 2-3 GB you will be safe. After my testing I found out it has to do with HEAT and TIME in your DVD player. If you play a 4GB DVD with a label it will almost always skip near the end. However ther has been some cases were it didn't but you are gambling. (this will only work if your DVD s are not printable and it also depends on your player). I have had 40% sucess with this method I have 5 different players. Play fine on 2/5 players. Do Not put a labels on Printable DVDRs!! 100% of the time it will skip near the end if the movie is 4GB. The heat from you player heats up the DVD too much because of the label and fact that it is printable. 100% success with no label 5/5! The people that are having sucess are probably not playing movies over 4GB this is why. The problem starts near the edges of the disc. TIME,Heat and Weight. :D :D | ||||||
| fritzi93 posted 2005 Mar 03 16:05 | ||||||
:thumbs_up: :nod: | ||||||
| mdw46 posted 2005 Mar 30 07:14 | ||||||
| I started out using avery label's, Then after being stored in a binder for a few months my dvd's started freezing..I tried using 3 different standalone players and still had the freezeup problem.I was suggested that i try removing the labels which i did.The disk's played with no problem !!!!
Mabe it was the avery paper,Who know's..I mark them with a sharpie marker now !!!!! | ||||||
| mdw46 posted 2005 Mar 30 07:15 | ||||||
| I have also read that in time moisture get's under the label's | ||||||
| Gritz posted 2005 Mar 30 08:43 | ||||||
BCAESE wrote:
Exactly ..... paper labels are death on full DVDs. Make you next printer one that prints directly to the "printable DVDs" | ||||||
| cd090580 posted 2005 Mar 31 12:07 | ||||||
| Just one question about the labels.
Why when a label is put on a dvd, the playback become jerky ? in computer, that makes CRC errors, on TV a lot of green mpg blocks. does the label alter the reflexive properties ? weigthens the dvd too much ? the disk is no more centered ? or other things ? thanks. | ||||||
| ALBERT1 posted 2005 Apr 01 11:04 | ||||||
| SureThing Hub Labels, 520 quantity, $9.95 at LabelGear.com
I ordered the above labels and the kit to see if and/or how well they may work. From everything I have researched independently and read in these posts, it seems reasonable that Hub Labels would be the safest way to go. | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2005 Apr 01 11:48 | ||||||
There are many theories. The one that seems to be the case for my DVD player is that labels can warp the disk. Paper expands less than plastic when it's heated which causes the disk to warp, pulling the outer edge of the disk up away from the laser. Also, shrinkage as the glue dries out causes the disks to warp. Some drives can adjust for this, others can't. I originally thought balance was an issue -- slightly offset lables (or uneven distribution of paper/glue) can cause the disk to wobble in the drive. I once cut half a label off, creating the worst possible balance problem. The disk was still readable but I thought my DVD player was going to explode from the vibrations! Someone brought up the possibility that some players may have trouble gripping the disk with a slippery full-coverage paper label. This would be a case against hub labels. But I've never heard anyone with hub labels complain of problems -- so this may not be an issue. Note that there doesn't have to be one cause for all DVD players. Some may be more sensitive to balance, some more sensitive to warping, etc. | ||||||
| Gritz posted 2005 Apr 01 12:26 | ||||||
| One explanation given was that the DVD tracks are so fine that any (even slight) out of balance condition causes erratic video at the outer edges where the speed picks up. Sounds reasonable .... and I've has so much trouble with paper labels that I ended up buying an Epson R300. Prints beautifully but after about 200 DVDs it fails to feed reliably. You can diddle around with it and make it feed ... but it's a pain in the arse! | ||||||
| 87gator posted 2005 Apr 19 11:48 | ||||||
| Well I think I have verified that this is indeed a heat related problem whereby the label expands at a different rate than the disc causing the disc to flex. This would explain why the errors tend to occur toward the end of viewing, are random in nature, and why some players play (heat less) better than others. I've found that you can remedy the problem by putting the disc in the freezer for a short period of time (~1min) and then resume the movie. Next, I'm going to see if I can avoid the problem altogether by storing my discs in the freezer ;^) | ||||||
| espaeth posted 2005 Apr 19 18:36 | ||||||
| Edit: Re-read thread -- removed obviously flawed observation. | ||||||
| joeg04 posted 2005 May 08 16:17 | ||||||
Also according to an article in the German computer magazine C't, paper labels warp the disk. See this news article: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/46600 Data Becker in Germany offers sticky labels specific for DVDs, made of polyethylene instead of paper, and also have a special glue. Colors offered are silver or white. They claim, that those labels don't warp DVDs and don't create any playback problems: http://www.databecker.de/page.php?TemplateCategory=Artikeldetails ... lID=310559 Does anyone have experience with those? | ||||||
| slalanc01 posted 2005 May 10 06:50 | ||||||
| Hi Everyone,
I have experienced playback problem after applied some label on my DVD media for my Toshiba SD-3750 DVD player. EVERY DVD was running with problem after I applied Full Coverage DVD Label (the one with the very little hole) . But strangly one of my DVD was always running correctly after I applied a CD LABEL (the one use for Audio CD with the larger hole). This is the only DVD I use a CD label and this is the only one running correctly!!! The 2 labels type (CD and Full Coverage) are from Neato I don't have experimented other DVD yet but it may be an alternative??? Someone have similar expericence??? thanks | ||||||
| edsmith77 posted 2005 May 10 10:20 | ||||||
| Good Morning to All,
Well at great risk, I am going to offer some unscientific data on the label, don't label issue. When this topic first surfaced some time ago, I had unfortunately already labeled a bunch of CDs and DVDs. I have since made backups to protect myself from what seemed like the logical consequences. But I did not get rid of the labeled discs. In fact, I did my own rigorous and very scientific :shock: experiment. I took 6 labeled CDs (music mix) and placed them in the glove compartment of my car and left them there (and they are still there now). They have survived two winters and two summers. I placed about six more in plastic jewel cases and put them in a closet in my bedroom. The remaining 12, I just left lying about with and without protection about the house. The results. They ALL still play perfectly. The labels are all still attached. None of the labels are starting to delaminate. This was most surprising for those in the glove box. But facts are facts. I have been hesitant to place them in the dash mounted player but instead used a portable cd player to test. All is well. I had even expected them to physically start to warp but that did not happen either. Those discs in the house are as good as the day I made them. The external temperature extremes for this period have been from -10 deg F to over 100 deg F. Not one has ever shown any effects of "off-center" wobble as described by others visiting this forum. So from my perspective and limited data, I am somewhat perplexed by what the data shows. But as of this writing I have discontinued using labels and totally rely on keeping Sharpie in business. Why, no real good reason. Maybe another two years worth of data will make a difference. | ||||||
| SCDVD posted 2005 May 10 10:50 | ||||||
| As discussed before, labels contract at a different rate than the plastic that the discs are made of. This contraction results in a warping of the discs. The label's contraction causes the outer edge of the disc to pull up slightly which creates a focus problem for the player. Fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be, DVD media is MUCH more sensitive to this problem than CDR media. The focus tolerances on DVD media is very much tighter than on CDR media. It is critical that the reflective layer in the disc be much closer to the laser in the drive. That is why DVD media is actually a sandwich of two thin plastic discs with the reflective layer in between the two discs. For the same reason, DVD media is much more sensitive to variations in the distance between the reflective layer and the laser lens in the drive. That is why labels are such a problem on DVD media while they don't create much of a problem on CDR media. | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2005 May 10 11:27 | ||||||
I've never had problems with labled CDs. I have lots of them, some nearly 10 years old, they all still work. Only labeled DVDs give me problems. | ||||||
| INFRATOM posted 2005 May 10 13:08 | ||||||
| I never had problem with labels on dvd when I discovered the only problem is Centering it Perfectly. I made a jig like bushing to sit on cd-stomper to center the labels with small hole 18 to 22 mm. Glossy comes out beautiful just like a picture. If someone needs detail of the jig I made ask. The beauty of the disc out weighs every now and then that may screw a label well it is 40 cents in these days and you can remove it with water or else. Most of the freezing problem is from media quality and burning at too high of speed. | ||||||
| slalanc01 posted 2005 May 12 11:59 | ||||||
| Don't use LABEL!!!!
After experienced playback problems I have test My labelled disk with DVDinfo and it say I have 23 error!!!, I remove the LABEL and I check again and NO ERROR at all!!!, I have tried 2 other disks and I have obtained similar result!!! I will never put any label on my DVD!! | ||||||
| MeDiCo_BrUjO posted 2005 May 12 20:08 | ||||||
| I think that if we make this poll again, the results will be way different. | ||||||
| ps99472 posted 2005 Jun 26 18:13 | ||||||
| here's my contribution:
I have many unplayable dvd-r (freezing, pixels, etc.) that range from 3 months old to 2 years old. They all have CD stomper labels with printing on them. I do a disk to disk copy with nero and the new copy plays fine w/o a label. same burner (optorite), same media (ritek's), same dvd player (phillips dvp) wouldn't this make the label the only culprit? | ||||||
| leebo posted 2005 Jun 27 00:34 | ||||||
A copy is a copy. It's not the same. Remove the label on one un-playable disc with WD-40 or GooGone. Clean all the WD-40 off of the disc. Now check if it plays. There's your answer. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2005 Jun 27 05:55 | ||||||
| Soaking in warm soapy water also works well for removing labels. | ||||||
| RNR1995 posted 2005 Aug 04 11:19 | ||||||
| I use Compulabel 312840 and have never had a problem. | ||||||
| junkmalle posted 2005 Aug 04 11:42 | ||||||
Wait until you get your next DVD player and half your DVDs don't play anymore. | ||||||
| SCDVD posted 2005 Aug 04 11:53 | ||||||
That's great! If he thinks he has all the answers and wants to ignore all of the VERY sound advise and information in this thread, let him. He will richly deserve everything that WILL happen to him! | ||||||
| kyoli posted 2005 Sep 04 02:53 | ||||||
| - A complete guidl on how to label DVD without trouble and how to rescue your failed labeled DVDs
As discussions in this forum, a lot of people including me suffered from sticky label problem. After labeling, data closing to the DVD edge will fail to read out. Many wonderful discussions about the reasons also have been posted in this column. The main reason is the disk warping after labeling due to the unbalanced heat cofficients on both sides, which has been verified by many reseach and testing. Here I would like to give a complete guid on how to label an DVD without this trouble and how to rescue failed labeled DVDs. So far, by these methods, I have successfully labeled any DVDs and rescue all DVDs failed. - How to label DVDs with sticky label No special tricks for label printing. When the label printing is done, put your label on DVD by the following steps: You don't need to use labeling kit to label, by a little bit more attention, label should be well aligned. Now, put your DVD on a clean surface, hold DVD label's edge by your fingers and align the label edge with DVD edge and stick just 4 to 5 cm long DVD edge with DVD edge. Note, just stick very narrow edge for positioning but not big area. Now leave your fingers from the label, hold up the DVD. Bend the DVD towards laser side(oppsite to label side). While the DVD is bending, the label will automatically attached to the DVD surface. The tips here are, don't stick label to surface by pushing it directly, instead bend DVD to let label stick on. By this way, the label will stick on a pre-warped DVD surface, which will prevent later on the laser heat during the play causes DVD to warp towards the label side. - How to rescue a failed labeled DVD If you have some DVDs already failed with label, you don't to tear label off. The following steps can completly save them. Sometimes the way of puting on label introduced in the beginning dose not work perfectly for some disks, especially for data closing to the edge, the following steps will solve the problem. Blow the hot air using hair dryer towards the DVD label surface, especially its edge part. While heating the surface, you bend the DVD towards the laser side. Turn the DVD around to bend the DVD for all directions. This will rescue the failed labeled DVD. The tips here are, the heat soften the glue of label, then bending DVD caused the label stick on a pre-warped surface. This pre-warped room will kill later heat warping on the oppsite direction. | ||||||
| Tom Saurus posted 2005 Oct 31 13:21 | ||||||
| I read this thread after I had already purchased CD Stomper. I am scared to put a lable on a CD or DVD. I am thinking about Printable DVD's and as far as I know there are no problems with Printable DVD's.
I can use CD Stomper for making inserts for CD and DVD Cases, so it still has value. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2005 Oct 31 14:50 | ||||||
| Printable DVD's are excellent. I use Taiyo Yudens with an Epson R200. Great results. I will never put another sticky label on a DVD. | ||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2005 Oct 31 21:02 | ||||||
| I saw a guy in the store earlier tonight. He said his DVDs quit working because labels were coming off.
The store clerk suggested he try a better brand of label. :roll: I wish more people came to this site. And read it and listened. It'd sure save a lot of people a lot of grief. Labels are a timebomb of trouble for DVDs. | ||||||
| Peterdragin posted 2005 Nov 09 11:38 | ||||||
| Hey guys I just was at the Epson web site and they have refurbished R200's for 59 bucks and FREE shipping. (just go to the clearance center.)
I ordered two of them, can't buy them any cheaper!! Hell ink costs more thatn the Printer. | ||||||
| Danja posted 2005 Nov 18 13:26 | ||||||
Ok, has anyone tried these labels??? Avery 8962
http://www.officedepot.com/ddSKU.do?level=SK&id=811376&&An=text On the package, Avery GUARANTEES that they will work in your DVD player--they are designed for them. It also explains WHY normal labels do not work (I don't have the package in front of me right now.) I have been trying them and I have had no problems yet (though very little testing so far.) | ||||||
| suAve posted 2005 Dec 01 19:47 | ||||||
| Never had problems in the past with VCDs initially and then DVDs..
Until I got a portable player for the car... After 20-30 minutes, they start to skip. I leave the player off for about an hour or more, and I can watch again for about 20-30 minutes (if not less). Pop in an original or one with no label and it plays no problem... Not an issue of mis-aligment (I think) as they still play perfectly well in my big player. No more lables - For now a good sharpie until I find a decent deal on an R200... In fact, I slowly started the removal process :( | ||||||
| funnel71 posted 2005 Dec 01 20:04 | ||||||
| Well, I've labeled all mine, and if I found skipping, I blamed it on burning too fast, so I redid the disc, and it was fine. I burn the movie, test it, stick a memorex label on it, then slide it through the Epson R200 which prints directly on the disc. I've used the "printable" discs before, but their label material doesn't hold ink that well, and it turns out in much a lighter shade compared to the original. | ||||||
| dcsos posted 2005 Dec 01 21:45 | ||||||
Yes they suck as do all paper labels that cover the disc surface | ||||||
| ark posted 2005 Dec 01 22:16 | ||||||
| Sticky paper Labelling DVD-R has given problems for me.
It is not that the adhesive would affect the recording dye layer (it is sanswitched between 2 plastic layers unlike CD-R). I then removed the sticky label and cleaned off all glue traces using soap - the DVD-R again plays fine. I suspect it has to do with dynamic balance of the disk being affected by paper labels - the laser has difficulty in tracking due to additional vibration. I no longer use paper labels, Perhaps I will go for a direct ink based printer in future. | ||||||
| suAve posted 2005 Dec 02 08:46 | ||||||
| I think there are two reasons that labels cause problems:
a) Not properly centered label - This would cause imbalance without a doubt b) Heat - Specially in small players, that tend to run hot, the labels might cause the player to overheat more than usual, causing problems (could also be an imbalance due to the heat ?) My labels are perfectly centered, with no air bubbles at all. I can read labeled DVDs on my desktop and the standalone player (full size). But nothing but problems in the laptop and in the portable player... I revived all DVDs that I've taken the labels out... My .02... | ||||||
| ToughRoeToHoe posted 2005 Dec 09 16:09 | ||||||
| After many hours, a new burner, new authoring software, and burning software, I will never again use paper labels on a DVD. With paper labels pixellation, freezing. Without paper labels, no problems, none, nada, zip. Put label on disk has problems. Take label off disk works great. | ||||||
| ToughRoeToHoe posted 2005 Dec 09 16:25 | ||||||
suAve, it probably isn't balance (i.e., centering). As has been mentioned, the disks play fine even with big gobs of glue hanging on them. I had to pull my player apart to get the thing out but I tested one that way. It played perfectly as long as the paper itself was removed. (This also means it probably isn't aerodynamics either - i.e., air bubbles.) It probably isn't heat related either. Fast forwarding to the outer edge of a disk will get you the pixellation, freezing effects on a stone cold player. I'm wondering if it is weight related though I cannot fathom why it would be. | ||||||
| TheFamilyMan posted 2005 Dec 09 17:05 | ||||||
| I admit it...I loved to use sticky labels on my DVD project...it made them look so nice and personal. But alas, everyone else really did know better and now do I: Sooner or later you WILL have playback problems if you use sticky labels! The manufacturers should put warnings on their sticky label products: WARNING: Use of this product may inpair your DVD player's ability to play the applied disks. :lol:
As to why, I like the heat argument: paper, glue and the disk itself all have different expansion coefficients, so a sticky labelled disk "gets bent out of shape" when it heats or cools. | ||||||
| TheFamilyMan posted 2005 Dec 14 16:06 | ||||||
God almighty...I brought up "Sonic Label Maker" on my work computer and it started off with this dialog:
Let the truth be known! | ||||||
| TooLFooL posted 2005 Dec 14 18:56 | ||||||
| ive seen some manufacturers ARE actually putting that warning on thier package now. | ||||||
| dcsos posted 2005 Dec 14 20:29 | ||||||
| Ok I admit some DVD's are designed to die
No, I'm not talking about those SELF-DESTRUCTING ones, either I mean the kind you mail out hundreds of for BUSINESS REASONS these may deserve to die after serving there usefullness in a blitz campaign or p/r effort So go ahead..use a paper label on these goners! OTHERWISE..do as the archivists do 1. Use INJET Optical Discs 2. Use Thermal Printing 3. SANFORD MARKERS-eg SHARPIE | ||||||
| robertazimmerman posted 2005 Dec 15 01:04 | ||||||
| After a $110 repair to my Toshiba SD-6200 as a result of a label gumming up the insides, there's no way I'd ever use labels again.
roberta | ||||||
| whitejremiah posted 2005 Dec 15 01:30 | ||||||
| I never have used labels on my discs, if anything, im gonna spring for one of those litescribe drives, the most i generally do anyhow is just scribble the name of whatever's on there......i suppose a lightscribe drive would work well for audio cd's so i could have like the track listing on there, or something like that.....but i generally dont really go out of my way to make the disc look that good. :D
on another note.....110 dollars to repair a dvd player? i wouldve just tossed it and replaced it at that price, heck you can get a divx compatable one for under 70 bux these days...... EDIT: nevermind, just googled that particular player, didn't realize it was such a specialized one........in which case, that bites :S | ||||||
| dvdguy4 posted 2005 Dec 15 05:05 | ||||||
| Thats why I use only one thing. A sharpie.
:xmas: Happy Holidays wherever you may be. :xmas: | ||||||
| cgiesler83 posted 2005 Dec 30 03:52 | ||||||
| Hello there. I have read everyones advice and I just have one question: I have some dvds with labels and i need to extract the info on these discs to the hardrive. I cannot get the last couple of files to burn and every dvd rom drive i try cannot complete it. Only the labeled ones have the issues. My question is...Can someone please tell me of a method or a program out there that can help me get this data off the disc? i know its not corrupted cause the disc will play in my dvd player. Its just when it comes to extracting it i have problems.
Somebody Please Help! cgiesler83 | ||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2005 Dec 30 05:20 | ||||||
| Remove the labels. I hear warm soapy water works well. | ||||||
| Kingnog posted 2005 Dec 30 11:15 | ||||||
| The strangest part is that the labeled disks work fine at first. It's only after a month or so that mine start to have problems. However, removing the labels fixes it! It's the strangest thing I've experienced with disks. | ||||||
| Peterdragin posted 2006 Jan 06 21:50 | ||||||
| Simple test to show you why sticky labels screw up discs. Stick the disc in your computer and run a scan test with nero, plextools , krobe or what ever you have loaded in your computer. when the test is done errors and all set the disc "label down" on your scanner glass and notice how far the center of the disc sticks up, (warped up in the center).
I have found that they STILL warp without labels but not enough to bother playback, it's because of the greater mass in the outer rim of the disc it expands more than the center. Remove the labels with simple green cleaner, works great and removes the glue also. When you rinse the disc in warm water you end up with a squeaky clean disc, and it will play back without errors. Cure the problem by printing on th dvd with printably discs. You can get refurbished R200's from epson for 59.00 with free shipping. I bought 2 of them in case one goes bad, that was a over a year ago. The printers come out of indy so shipping in the midwest is 2 or 3 days. | ||||||
| phhoth posted 2006 Jan 06 22:30 | ||||||
| Apply the label before burning!!!! You will not have any problems. :shock: :idea: | ||||||
| Ally7 posted 2006 Jan 13 15:18 | ||||||
| I have never had any probs with labels and I use cheap ones with no manufacturers ID on them - glossy or matt. maybe it's the media - I have always used RITEC dyes (G04 /G05 - on Ridisk and Datawrite/Datasafe) and had no probs so far.
I test the DVD before I waste the label - is everyone that has a prob sure it's the label? - did it work before? Ally | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2006 Jan 15 07:33 | ||||||
| I know its a long thread but read some of our members posts, labels causing the problems are the only logical explination.
Personally I have performed the following test. Burned a disc played it with no problems. Applied a label to that same disc - playback problems. Removed label - disc plays fine again. | ||||||
| winifreid posted 2006 Jan 15 09:06 | ||||||
| I have done the same test as Craig with the same results. Yes, media can make a differnce: bad media ia more susceptible to label problems. And putting a label on good media, but playing it in a bad player can also mean the video will not play, even if it plays in another, better player. So why take the chance? Either get a sharpie or use printable disks. | ||||||
| krupted posted 2006 Feb 02 14:40 | ||||||
| No epson R200's!! they are one of the worst peices of junk epson has created in years. it performs very similarly to my ancient epson stylus color 400. its horrible and the cd tray function only works if you help it with your hand. it gets very annoying to print discs with the epsons.
why not get a real printer and buy a canon pixma. a pixma ip5000 is one of the best budget printers ever, and its the last model to use the cheap non-chipped ink carts. one picolitre dot size, the results are outstanding. And the cd printing feature is so much better then epsons. it works without help, and its 4x quicker. For all of us americans, just go to ebay and buy a cd tray, enable cd mode on the printer and print your discs. this works for ANY pixma series printer. I went to office depot the other day and bought a ip5200. on ebay i found a cd tray, and it took less then a minute to change the service settings on the printer for it to work with cd's. big thanks to canon for after-all not crippling their printers. instructions here-http://pixma.web1000.com/ | ||||||
| impmon2 posted 2006 Mar 15 08:45 | ||||||
| For discs that I pass out to other people (no copyright issue here all are personal not commercial) I've used the sticky labels with no problem. Just as long as the labels are properly centered and you didn't use the cheap stuff the label should have little to no effect on most DVD players. Cheap label might have uneven distribution of the pulp or glue or may shrink or warp as it ages caising imbalance.
For personal discs though I don't use label I use a sharpie pen. :D The very same pen that ruined Sony's multi-million CD protection scheme. | ||||||
| lawnman posted 2006 Mar 15 16:13 | ||||||
| :lol: | ||||||
| pochrist posted 2006 Apr 21 16:00 | ||||||
| I'll add my 2 cents as I was just brought up to date as to the Label issue and it solved my problem with a number DVDr's in my collection.
I believe 2 factors are at play when then DVDr skips with the labels applied. Its the player (I can't tell you how many post I saw that said "I have million of DVDrs labeled and none them skip") Its the Labels (This to me is 90% of the problem) I Had a Apex AD-1500 and it was the player "I cut my teeth on" I could it seemed I would really have to screw up for this player not to play back my disks smoothly. But is has since passed on and last year I got a Pioneer DV-270. All was well and then suddenly my movies were skipping and stopping. I would re-burn and re-label. I found only recently about this label issue after I just purchsed a Yamaha DVD S550 and the problems would start to accur again but not on all the disks. I know remember one thing that contributed to the problem, right after I got the Pioneer I ran out of the Avery labels that I normally used and I picked a 100pack of CDStomp, I rember after opening them up noticeing that they are thicker the Avery labels. Last night I removed Labels of a Bunch of my "BAD" DVD-rs and can confirm the problem is gone. (for me atleast) I believe the labels and the Player contribute to the problem, but more so the labels. I thank the kind sole who PM'd me and pointed me in the right direction. | ||||||
| SingSing posted 2006 Apr 21 16:21 | ||||||
| I used Neato label. There are three types of label on the same sheet : Full CD/DVD label, Small hub label, and spine label.
So far, some of those DVDs with Full DVD label do skip at the end of the movie. Those with small hub/ring label so far are still fine, but I won't bet on it. I have been looking for a inkjet printer for DVD printing, but their graphics are kind of awful, or their ink won't work with normal DVD surface. Is there a type or brand of label that don't cause problems, or is there a CD/DVD printer really nice and work ? I read this "I use the Canon i865. It prints DVD/CD's to a fantastic quality, and comes with all the trays etc you need." How is this printer/ink combination on regular DVD ? | ||||||
| RabidDog posted 2006 Apr 21 17:25 | ||||||
| NOne of the existing "consumer" level printers will work with ordinary DVD's . They have to be inkjet printable or thermal printable blanks. You could also look at Lightscribe and labelflash drives and media (agin both special) . IMO matte white inkjet printables is the best solution, until the new "rainbow-burn" HD-DVD drives and media arrive. | ||||||
| ShadowrazoR posted 2006 Apr 21 19:32 | ||||||
| i use markers to write on my discs. would that be dangerous? | ||||||
| TooLFooL posted 2006 Apr 21 19:46 | ||||||
no, fool, that's the current recommendation a few hundred posts up! :lol: | ||||||
| SingSing posted 2006 Apr 23 11:49 | ||||||
paper labels look nice, if it interferes with the chemical and the balance of the disc. Then maybe the smaller core labels can avoid the pitfall, since it is on the opposite side that has no CD/DVD coating, and its mass is only 9.8% of the full label. They also cost less per disc.
 | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2006 Apr 23 12:16 | ||||||
| The writable layer is in the middle of the disc sandwiched between polycarbonate layers there is no way it could be a chemical effect. It is either warping of the disc caused by the label or balancing issues. | ||||||
| SingSing posted 2006 Apr 23 12:38 | ||||||
| It is the common expereince that DVD read back issue happened at the outer radius of the disc. DVD players do 1X DVD read back which is CAV ( Constant Angular Velocity ). If the assumption that the bits per track, and the track width is the same, then the outer track suppose to be easier to read back. But we know that is not true. Does this has to do that DVD is mostly written in CLV ( Constant Linear velocity )? It may be another non/linear tracking issue like record player and record cutter.
By weight, a blank disc weighs 0.55 oz, and a full label weighs 0.05 oz at about 10%. Is this enough to unbalance the play back in a player ? So far, like everybody else, I was looking for a pleasing way to identify the 100 disc. Marker is not for me. So far, the core labels have not cause me problem yet. I am looking to swap experince with others. The 10 or so discs that I have problem with, are mostly after 2 years or so. So it can be the discs themselves, or the label, or both. But with 100s burn disc on hand, and 100s more to go. We better find a solution soon. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2006 Apr 23 12:54 | ||||||
| Printable discs and an inkjet disc printer is the way to go. | ||||||
| SingSing posted 2006 May 05 15:46 | ||||||
This is a message box from Sonic label maker.
 | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2006 May 06 01:46 | ||||||
| Interesting, its only taken 3 1/2 years since the start of this thread to see an official warning like that :lol: | ||||||
| Professor HD posted 2006 Jun 16 15:34 | ||||||
| Have you folks checked out HP CD/DVD Tattoos. They are at www.hp.com/go/tattoos. They are polycarbonate rather than paper based labels and should have much better reliability. | ||||||
| Horatio Hornblower posted 2006 Aug 28 22:06 | ||||||
| Printable disks rule. Use a Canon printer with a Disc Dabber Tray. Take a look at www.cd-trays.com It looks like it addresses every concern, including cost, speed, reliability, full color, etc.
(The link is now fixed. Many thanks, winifreid, for pointing out the problem.) | ||||||
| winifreid posted 2006 Aug 29 07:01 | ||||||
| Your link is broke. Anyway, it is easy to make your own. I've been printing on my canon 3000 for over a year with a tray I made out of a cereal box. | ||||||
| SingSing posted 2006 Aug 29 07:21 | ||||||
Are there CD Trays for HP or Dell or Lexmark inkjet printers ?
Can you show us how to make one for Canon or HP inkjet printers ? | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2006 Aug 29 16:12 | ||||||
| I have just bought a cannon Pixma (I already have an R200). I must say first impressions are I prefer the cannon. It seems quicker and the tray feed is much more reliable than the Epson. The software does not let you print to the centre of the full face discs though, although I thought I read somewhere of a way to do it, will have to investigate further. | ||||||
| winifreid posted 2006 Aug 29 17:22 | ||||||
| Here is the link on how to get Pixma 3000 to print to DVD
http://pixma.webpal.info/Pixma345/345.html You can adjust the inner circle by going to "Select Paper" under "File" then select new and create your own user define circle diameter. | ||||||
| Joe Ryan posted 2006 Aug 30 13:41 | ||||||
| Paper labels on DVDs expand and contract with humidity. This is a characteristic of paper (the inventor of air conditioning worked in a paper factory, and he was trying to draw water out of the environment to keep the print rolls in registration.) The expansion and contraction change the tilt of a DVD disc over time, and the outer area of the disc goes out of laser focus. The problem is not as severe with CD-Rs because the solid piece of carbonate is less likely to tilt than the sandwiched DVD halves, and the tracks and pits are much larger. Paper labels should never be applied to DVDs. The only ones that work with few problems are polyester based labels. | ||||||
| verchad posted 2006 Aug 30 15:38 | ||||||
| It's the thread that would not die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: | ||||||
| SingSing posted 2006 Aug 30 16:07 | ||||||
So you guys are on the same track. | ||||||
| pantsonfire posted 2006 Aug 30 16:42 | ||||||
| I have never labeled my dvd's because a friend told me it could interfere with the playing of the dvd. | ||||||
| Horatio Hornblower posted 2006 Aug 31 01:11 | ||||||
You can't stick a tray with a disc in it in just any printer. Several models of Canon printers are designed to print on a disc in a tray, but the feature is disabled in units sold in the U.S. Adding a tray is the main step toward enabling the feature. I don't believe the other brands you mentioned have any models that are designed for printing on disc. In addition to Epson and Canon, there are at least two other companies that make inkjet printers for direct disc printing. They are based on HP print engines and use HP ink cartridges. They start at $1200. So for most of us it's either an Epson or an enabled Canon. From what I've read it seems that Canon is preferred by those who have used both. In the U.S., a number of handy people have made their own trays for Canon printers in the manner shown by the link posted earlier by winifreid. Others prefer to buy a tray. Check out the links and you'll see exactly what's involved if you want to go with Canon. | ||||||
| eagle25s posted 2006 Nov 01 19:58 | ||||||
| In previous posts the Disc Dabber™ Tray for Canon Printers
is mentioned. I have finally tried one of these trays because they are less expensive then the genuine Canon trays. They work fine and the Company's support of the product is outstanding. I highly recommend them for disk printing on Canon printers. They can be found at http://cd-trays.com/ Instructions for printer activation codes to allow disk printing can be found there also. :) | ||||||
| SingSing posted 2006 Nov 02 07:39 | ||||||
| Which Canon printer did you used ?
Can the canon ink cartridge be refilled with syringe and ink ? | ||||||
| eagle25s posted 2006 Nov 02 09:43 | ||||||
| I use the Canon IP3000 printer and I do refill the cartridges without even removing
them from the printer. The cd-trays.com website lists most of the Canon printers that can print on DVD/CD and the majority of them can be refilled quite easily with just a syringe. :) | ||||||
| winifreid posted 2006 Nov 02 10:36 | ||||||
| I made my cd tray out of a cereal box and have been using it for almost 2 years. | ||||||
| Digiface posted 2006 Dec 23 10:26 | ||||||
| Can just writing to disc with DVD marker cause same problems? | ||||||
| classfour posted 2006 Dec 23 11:10 | ||||||
| Research it: the only way a marker will damage it is if the ink can penetrate the surface. I do know for a fact that sharpie ink can damage stainless steel pipe and weaken it. I haven't heard of anyone having problems with media from markers, though. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2006 Dec 23 11:11 | ||||||
No, this has been answered just a few posts up | ||||||
| Gr8DaddyG posted 2007 Jan 08 20:28 | ||||||
| My biggest problem was that the labels were always too thick. Everytime I played a disc in my laptop, you could slightly hear the label rapidly scraping against something in my DVD drive.
Another reason not to use labels is that there may be slight imperfections in the paper which would cause the disc to "wobble" at high speeds and this could cause playback errors. The best thing to use is the white printable DVDR discs and a compatible color printer if you really MUST label your discs. | ||||||
| jonesb posted 2007 Mar 10 08:35 | ||||||
| At the risk of being repetitive, I can confirm the experience of others.
Do NOT apply sticky labels to DVDs or CDs. As well, inkject printing onto those labels, especially in color may be a problem but I have not been able to isolate the printing issue from the sticky label issue. Prior to finding this out, a lot of my CDs and DVDs suffered skipping or corruption, particularly near the end (later tracks or chapters) of the burns. I had attributed this effect to the burning technique. When an important wedding video became corrupted, I joined this group and found the answer. Here is the good news: If you use a plastic container and carefully "soak" the labels off, your data from the original burn will all become readable again! Soaking may take up to 12 hours in the water (depending on the time the labels have been on) and may need to be finished off with a not too sharp plastic strait edge. When doing this, lumps of glue emerge and may get into the water and or become attached to the other side of the media. Since it is important not to add glue to the other side, removal and soaking needs to be done carefully in clean water at room temperature. I have not warmed the water up because of the possibility of warping. Finally, your cleaned media may play very well in the hour or so after you wipe and dry it out with a soft cloth, but there may still be isolated corruption (although vastly less than before the soak). However, magically, the disc will return to perfection in another 24 hours, indicating that some moisture was still present which needed to evaporate. Possibly the water invaded a bit between the layers of plastic. The above concept have now been proven with over 20 DVDs (single layer, various brand types) and three CDs. All successful. I have a ton of CDs to do; should anything further develop, I will let the forum know. I had been using Avery 5584 labels and and HP Deskjet 952C printer. Now I am labelling simply with a Sharpie pen designed for the purpose. Happily, elsewhere on this forum, "Sharpies" were confirmed as being OK. Moderator may wish to copy this post to the Media forum, where I have recently posted a couple of times. | ||||||
| Wile_E posted 2007 Mar 10 10:36 | ||||||
| Here is something I always wanted to know. What about printable discs with white surface? Isn't this surface just a white label that the manufacturer bonds to the disc with glue? Or is it built into a layer of the disc? | ||||||
| jonesb posted 2007 Mar 10 12:42 | ||||||
| As a matter of fact, I am just finishing a spindle of "no-name" DVD blanks which have exactly that - a white grainy surface on which hand printing can be done.
Over at the "Media" forum, their initial response was that I was using poor quality media and that I should jump up to better, recommended DVD media. So I went out and got a pack of Maxells (number three on the list; couldn't find the top two brands). At the same time I was beginning the soaking system and a lot of the DVDs I soaked were those "white-label" no-name type. Same result; once the sticky and inkjet printing was removed = a clean readable disk. The white grainy surface seems to be bonded onto the plastic and is not affected or removed by the soak. Interestingly some other disks I have soaked (mainly CDs) will occasionally have their colored labels scratched a bit especially if any straight edge is used to get the label off. So afterward I rewrote with an approved Sharpie onto the white label-free disk. Not quite as "professional" looking as the old labels, but hey; the disks play - and you don't have to re-burn. | ||||||
| Craig Tucker posted 2007 Mar 11 05:27 | ||||||
Its not a label as such, its a printable coating which is applied to the disc during manufacture. Never had any problems with my printable discs. I use Taiyo Yuden full face printables. | ||||||
| WonkyRuler posted 2008 May 15 07:33 | ||||||
| Hi there,
Am so glad managed to find this post...finally got some answers for the reason for my DVD skipping nightmares :) You are in breach of the forum rules and are being issued with a formal warning. / Moderator offline | ||||||
| bstern posted 2008 Sep 10 10:21 | ||||||
| I also have the same problem but it seems mostly with the Neato Glossy Labels. The DVDs play fine in my computers but when played in a stand alone DVD player sometimes they won't even load. I am thinking it is the additional weight of these disks after these labels are applied or the reflection of the label. I don't believe it has anything to do with the ink. These labels are quite heavy when you add up the grams so I am going to try thinner matte labels and see if that fixes the problem. Stay tuned! | ||||||
| offline posted 2008 Sep 11 03:13 | ||||||
| Please start a new thread bstern. This one is rather old. Thanks |
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