Forum Archive Home -> DVD Recorders -> Pioneer DVR-520H: seeking advice for DVR-107-XA drive replacement.
Pioneer DVR-520H: seeking advice for DVR-107-XA drive replacement. | ||||||||
| donglejack posted 2007 Jul 06 15:45 | ||||||||
| Hello,
I've got both a 520H and a 720H of witch I'm fully satisfied. However, I have to admit that their lifetime is limited by the life of the optical lens of the burner. The closest replacement is to get a DVR-107 (or DVR-A07), then retrieve the lens to fit in the DVR-107XA (Gshelley61 did it successfuly - see huge topic about HDD replacement on this machine). Unfortunately, these drives are getting a bit rare (5 generations old ...), and a new drive unit from Pioneer costs about $300. So did someone successfully replaced this unit with something else? A DVR-108 could be okay, but today, we have only DVR-111 and DVR-112 fully available (of course, electrical connections are not compatible). I think I'm not alone to have this unit, and sadly, one day or another we all have this problem. So, any working idea is welcome! :) | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2007 Jul 06 22:13 | ||||||||
The short answer is Ebay. That is where I acquired my two lightly used backup drives. There is also a vendor in Orange County Calif. (who I think may have been referenced in the thread that you cited, or in the replace-HDD thread if that is not the one you referred to) who apparently has some leftover stock on the 107s, which he is selling for around $100. each. I must admit to confusion over the various models within a Pioneer series. The retail box A0_ vs. the OEM 10_ is clear enough. But whats up with the XL versions, for example ? There are Mac versions that seem to have no Eject button. According to the optical drive replacement account in that thread, all that is done is to cannibalize the laser / lens assembly. So, within the _07 family, the other differences may not matter. Or at least I HOPE SO. As to the _08, I have no idea. Once you go past that, I suspect the differences become critical. | ||||||||
| donglejack posted 2007 Jul 07 10:06 | ||||||||
| Many thanks Seeker47 for your answer.
Yes, you find many 107 burners on eBay, but unfortunately, you do not know if these are hardly used or not... There was a seller few weeks ago that had some in stock, but he required a minimum of $500 to ship o'seas. No luck ... :( And a 107 (or A07) is not useable as a plug&play replacement, since the firmware is quite different in the DVR-520. Perhaps it is possible however to fit a standard 107 in the DVR-520 and then upload the firmware from service disk (I didn't tried). However, I 'm very interested in the name of your vendor. I think I have a look at the 'HDD replacement' thrad right now :wink: Have a nice day! | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2007 Jul 07 11:21 | ||||||||
The overseas shipping part is a complication, for sure. I've seen a lot of Ebay auctions where the Seller (who must have gotten burned once on such a transaction) either won't sell to bidders outside the country or places extreme conditions on such a sale. The price for the replacement part from Pioneer is also ridiculous. For less than that amount, I earlier considered buying a DVD duplicator on Ebay. They have had some with 5 or 6 of these 107 burners in them. It's still a roll of the dice, but my theory was that this would improve the odds.
I don't think the people who did this were talking about replacing the whole burner. (But there may have been one exception -- See Below.) If I recall correctly, it was just a key internal portion of the burner that was replaced, and in that case the firmware would remain as it was. I would print these threads out, and then ask the people who actually did this some follow-up questions. (There is a HDD replacement guide of some sort on HKan's Pioneerfaq site, and I think that a guide for the burner -- maybe with photos -- would make a valuable addition. IF & WHEN, I would be willing to put one together myself, but I really hope that the need for attempting this procedure is still a long ways off, in my case. :wink: )
Well, that main replace-HDD thread is now 21 pages long. :!: I did not manage to find the right section, or the bookmark that I made when I was reading that part. Searching the forum did not turn it up, either. In the meantime, have a look here: http://forum.videohelp.com/topic303341.html http://forum.videohelp.com/topic314946.html#1614673 The vendor I referred to is in Irvine, Calif. I was concerned because the website mentioning that burner is obviously quite out of date. But I did have an exchange of email some time ago with someone from the company, who told me these were leftover (unused) stock of the A07, retail box. (They did not seem too interested in selling just one or two pieces, though. :( ) I can try to dig out that email, if you like. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2007 Jul 08 14:43 | ||||||||
O.K., this may be a bit more to the point: It was page 10 of the long "replace HDD" thread http://forum.videohelp.com/topic253998-270.html#1438381 -- see the post from Techguy. There was a thread dealing mainly with the burner issue: http://forum.videohelp.com/topic289793.html Here is the page from that vendor: http://esbuy.com/ It has since been updated, now showing the DVR-110 where there used to be order info for the leftover stock of 107's. No idea if they still have those, but my email exchange with them was not that long ago. Trying to get ahold of them by those phone #s was a waste of time. | ||||||||
| donglejack posted 2007 Jul 10 16:22 | ||||||||
| Many thanks Seeker47 for your searches and for these useful links! :D
They have some in stock, ranging from $95 to $130, plus shipping o'seas for $50. Shipping is not cheap, but could be more expensive! And they do sell o'seas. They are not cheap but far less than this ridiculous price of $300 from Pioneer (part VXX2942 for people that want a genuine part. But I doubt ... :) ) For sure, some eBay sellers that do not want to sell o'seas must have had some problems in the past. So, it is understandable. However, I keep their address in my favourites, and I think I may buy them two parts to have parts available in case... And especially since I bought few days ago another DVR-520 for less than $200 (E140 to be precise), in an near-new condition. Yes, despite there are newer home burners, I do like this model (easy to use, good quality picture in RGB mode, and so on) :wink: I bought also for $10 an 2nd hand DVR-107 burner, so I think I give a try to upload firmware from service disk when I receive it, though I don't think that works. But let's try ... | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Jan 12 22:33 | ||||||||
Check this link below. http://forum.videohelp.com/topic303341.html Way cheaper. PsyMaster | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Jan 13 13:30 | ||||||||
Interesting post ! I expect it's quite possible that that Teac burner model could in actuality be a 107. (For example, weren't some of the Benq burners really something else, rebadged ?) But I would also very much like to hear Orsetto's take on this, and Hkan's. If this pans out -- please keep us informed -- your step-by-step with photos should probably go onto Hkan's site as a PDF.
Yeah, I bought one of those used Mac models as a spare myself. Haven't had to try it out yet, but that could be bad news.
Good diagnostic practice, I think. That's how I would have proceeded.
Thanx. | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Jan 15 23:13 | ||||||||
| Okay here are my results. The TY's seem to have done the trick, the recorder finalizes these discs.
In my panic I bought up every DVR-107/DVR-A07 that I could bid on. I now have 6 replacement drives one of which is the NEW TEAC drive. I've communicated with my Teac drive supplier and he does have some available. I guess I can do the swap out on my 520H but I think I'll wait till I get the service remote (my sprint palm pilot cannot be trusted). Unless HKan can do it. Here's something ironic, my 520H will record Pay For View and Premium Channels (HBO, Starz, etc) but it won't allow me to record a VHS movie when connected to the VHS player via RCA cables. Go figure! Psy | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jan 15 23:34 | ||||||||
| Sorry I'm late to this party, usually seeker47 and I both manage to chime in on these Pio burner questions. :lol: I don't have much to add since you've already figured out the primary task is to swap the controller board inside the original dead burner to the new replacement burner. Once you do this the recorder will usually (but not always) accept it as the original without asking for the service remote/service disc nonsense. I have done this repeatedly to fix 520s. I've done the same on several 510s, except they require the 106 drive instead of the 107. And also the 530 series, which used the 109. It does not matter the brand name or model as long as it will accept the controller board from the original burner. DVR-107 and DVR-A07 are identical, and the "XL" models are the ones with special recorder firmware in their controller boards. You are very fortunate indeed to have discovered the Teacs, I'm glad you posted that info here. So far as I know, aside from the Pioneer and Pioneer/Apple burners, the only third-party drives that could be used in a Pioneer recorder were certain Memorex models that were re-branded Pioneer 106 drives (I've used these to fix DVR-510 recorders). If these Teacs can be sourced new at affordable prices, it will be a great help to many sad 520 and 720 owners!
Try to use only the TY discs as much as possible: the older drives burn them easily with little wear. Other brands will often seem to work, but they stress the laser and shorten the life of the burner (older burners will sometimes accept and finalize modern 16x media, but they struggle with the burning process). | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Jan 16 12:27 | ||||||||
That would be useful info as well. I, for one, would not mind laying in another spare or two, since the couple I do have were bought used, and their extent of wear remains unknown, even though I did do some quick tests back when I received them.
I think that is not too surprising, and has been explained here before a number of times. The ability to record the former seems to be dependent on whether your provider is passing certain 'flags' as part of the signal. So far, some do, some don't, and that's why we get differing reports on this. I've never had any problem recording Premiums or VOD, on either the Pio 520 or the 640, but can't recall ever running across anything on PPV that I was willing to pay for, so would have to defer that report to others. But if your provider is Comcast (?), or certain others in various areas, you might not be so lucky. In regard to VHS, I believe Orsetto may have cautioned us that the 520 could be twitchy in that task, and better to go with a later model, or at least use some Clarifier-type countermeasures. | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Jan 16 23:56 | ||||||||
| I have a Phillips DVR-3567H so I'll test the ability to record a VHS movie through this unit. DVR-520 fails on VHS movie recording but will record PFV and STARZ/HBO the DVR-3567H will not record PFV nor will it record STARZ/HBO.
How many Teac drives should I buy to sell to all? Psy | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jan 18 12:07 | ||||||||
| There are two primary issues that can come up when transferring VHS to DVD.
The first issue is that VHS is a "dirty" format, full of instabilities and minor glitches that were not a big problem for analog displays but can wreak havoc with some digital encoders and many flat panel TV sets. This issue has cropped up much less in the last couple years, as the newer DVD recorders have been redesigned to expect and smooth over unstable VHS and cable TV inputs. If your recorder dates from late 2005 forward, you should not have any dramatic image distortions when dubbing tapes you recorded yourself. But if your recorder is pre-2005, such as the extremely popular Pioneer 520 of 2004, you might regularly see very poor recording quality from your VHS sources. The only solution for this is to use a very high-end SVHS or DVHS vcr as the playback source- these units have internal TBC and DNR circuits that refine and smooth minor VHS glitches. You might also need an external TBC (time base corrector). My opinion, expressed here before, is that this additional hardware is not necessarily the best way to go: for the money, most people are better off just buying a newer DVD recorder that copes better with VHS. TBC and DNR features in a vcr are nice to have as options, but you really don't want to be forced to always use them: they can soften the image considerably. The earlier DVD/HDD recorders like Pioneer 520 are top-quality units, but much better suited to off-the-air and cable recordings, where they perform their best. It doesn't make sense to load up on additional hardware just to work around their VHS input limitations. The second and more common VHS issue occurs when you attempt to back up your old commercial (Hollywood) tapes to DVD. Commercial VHS is laced with the MacroVision copy-inhibit signal, which all DVD recorders are designed to sense. So they will lock out their recording function if you attempt to transfer a commercial tape. This applies across the board to every vintage of DVD recorder, old and new (except for a very few oddball machines long discontinued). To get around this you need to patch a "video filter" or "clarifier" between your VCR and your DVD recorder. These little black boxes are covered more extensively in other threads- run a search. There are two basic types: very expensive digital models ($100 and up), which filter out old (VHS) and new (cable/satellite/DVD) recording blocks, and the cheap ($30 or less) analog models which only help with VHS. Buy the one you can afford or need. There are many members here who found success making their external TBCs (like the DataVideo TBC-1000) do "double duty" as copy-inhibit filters. I have found very inconsistent filtering performance with these: sometimes they work, sometimes they let the block slip through and ruin a recording at the middle or end. I recommend a dedicated filter even if you own a TBC. | ||||||||
| dixons posted 2009 Jan 25 20:50 | ||||||||
| Just joined the forum. My 107 has bit the dust and am trying to source a new one with no luck. I noticed the first post mentioned using a 108. I have seen one of these on ebay in Australia. It was suggested by Hakikan that this might work in a 520H. Does anyone know for sure. I don't mind replacing the lens unit if they are similar or using the data disc and remote. it would appear that 107's are very rare here.
Geoff | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Jan 25 22:14 | ||||||||
I have a line on some Teac drives that are the exact match as the pioneer 107s, if you are interested see earlier posts. If your drive has stopped finalizing discs you might want to try TY discs, they have the old formula media. I thought my drive was going but found that the media available in the stores were not compatible with my 520h any longer. Cheers Psy | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Jan 26 02:13 | ||||||||
| The 108 is definitely NOT a suitable replacement for the 520 burner. The 520 requires a 107, otherwise you won't be able to swap the circuit boards which is a necessity. If you cannot find a bare 107 drive, look for a used complete recorder, the cheaper versions without hard drive (220, 320). You can harvest the 107 drives from such units and put them in a 520 or 720.
The 107 series was the last "full size" burners Pioneer made. Starting with the 108 they moved to a smaller case and smaller circuit boards with different connectors from the 107, thats why the 108 or later won't work in the 520. What does sometimes work is a "downgrade" to a 106 drive removed from the earlier models 310, 510, 3100 or 5100. If you have the service remote and disc, you can make the 520 accept a complete older 106 burner from the earlier recorder (do not switch the circuit boards, swap out the entire drive). There is no real performance difference between a 106 and a 107 when used in a recorder: neither was a speed demon, and neither burned DL. I have successfully "downgraded" a 520 to accept a burner from a 510, and I've successfully transplanted an "upgrade" 107 drive from a 220 into a 510. With the older burners getting scarcer, you have to be creative whenever possible. Look for whatever drives or donor recorders you can obtain in your region. The member above who posted info about the TEAC re-branded 107s did just that: perhaps his source will ship to Oz for you? | ||||||||
| dixons posted 2009 Jan 26 22:46 | ||||||||
| Thanks for the info about 108. Will try to source a DVD recorder/and or try different discs, but it appears to not like DVD -RW either. Will still play discs but when it tries to burn at top speed it fails and when I try real time the disc jumps and freezes after burning.
geoff | ||||||||
| almayer posted 2009 Aug 17 10:29 | ||||||||
| Hello, my 720 just bought the dust as well. Everything is working fine, but I cannot finalize the dvds after recording them. Also, I cannot finalize the same DVD on other machines. I tried to shop around for boththe Pio 107 or the Teac but no luck, anyone has a good source to advise? :?: | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Aug 19 14:02 | ||||||||
| If you cannot find a bare drive, the second easiest way to obtain a replacement burner for a 520/720 etc is to just look for a used 220, 225 or 320. These turn up frequently on the USA/Canada eBay sites. Fully functional examples often approach or exceed $100 US, but very many of those listed as "broken- won't power on" sell for much less, in the range of $20-50 US. Pioneer, along with every other mfr in 2004, got stuck with counterfeit Chinese power supply parts that tend to fail quickly. This failure has nothing to do with the burners, which are usually in good shape and can be transplanted from a "dead" Pioneer x20 series into your higher-end 520,720, etc.
Unfinalized Pioneer discs can be finalized by any Pioneer recorder from any year- the earliest 2003 model 510/5100 can finalize discs made on the latest 2008 model 660 (and vice versa). The only restrictions involve the very early, expensive model 7000 which was basically a prototype and has disc interchange issues with the later models. There are also difficulties with lower-end 2005 models like the VHS/DVD combo decks and the DVD-only model 230, 231, 233 units: these were not made by Pioneer but subcontracted elsewhere (a mistake Pioneer did not repeat). | ||||||||
| almayer posted 2009 Aug 22 23:39 | ||||||||
| Dear Orsetto, thanks for the useful tips. I've actually found the DVR-LX61 here at the local dealer, do you think it's worth it? Has the GUI changed/improved? I like the idea of being able to record dual layer, have more space and connecting via HDMI the player. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Aug 24 03:37 | ||||||||
| The LX-61 is worthwhile if you can afford it and/or need the additional tuner options it includes. The LX series is similar to the 550 and 560, but higher-end with somewhat nicer cabinet and usually more elaborate tuners for both digital and analog PAL broadcasts. The LX can finalize your old discs, no problem. | ||||||||
| almayer posted 2009 Aug 24 08:45 | ||||||||
But has the GUI for editing changed? It's the only one available here, for ~400 €. Alternatively, for a cheaper price, i've found the Philips VDR3570, and the LG RH-399, but I've read mixed reviews on line. :? | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Aug 24 10:10 | ||||||||
| Sorry I forgot your second question. Yes, the GUI on Pioneers after the 720 changed, mostly for the better. Navigation of titles is much, much easier now with a scrolling list of titles that just goes up and down- no more zig-zagging across four titles at a time. The chapter editing, thumbnail selection, erase section, and copy list-copy to DVD screens are similar to the 720 but updated to be more responsive and again appear "cleaner" and more intuitive. The one change that long-time 520/720 users protest here constantly is that Pioneer dropped the dedicated chapter marking button on the remote on all models beginning with the 530 series in 2005 (the 720 is from 2004). You can no longer watch a recording in "normal" full screen mode, and add chapter points on-the-fly using the button on the remote. Placing custom chapter points now requires you to open a separate, dedicated chapter edit screen with its own GUI. The inset video preview in this GUI is rather small, this makes finding the exact frame you want to mark as a chapter a bit more inconvenient. The system works fine, and is similar to the way most other DVD/HDD recorders now handles chapter insertion, but if you are very very fond of the "old" chapter marking with the one-touch button on the remote, you may be very disappointed. This single function is the reason why resale prices for 520/720 machines remain very high: they seldom appear for sale because owners would rather spend large sums of money to repair them than give up the full-screen chapter insertion feature. Minor changes were also made to the title name entry screens and DVD menu choices, text is now anti-aliased and a bit smaller so it appears cleaner on large LCD displays (if your television is smaller than 26" the new text displays are a bit harder to read from a distance). The good news is you can now connect any USB keyboard and directly type title names, if you don't want to use the remote and on-screen keyboard.
My own personal preference is for the new GUI overall: the full-screen chapter insert is nice, but I find every other GUI aspect of the 520/720 horribly clunky and difficult. The navigation between titles and navigation between editing modes in the 2005 and later Pioneers is much more responsivee and logical to operate. The LG and Phillips units are not as elegant, the Phillips particularly being an annoyingly difficult interface for anyone used to a Pioneer. The Phillips and LG are decent units at a very reasonable price, but with DVD/HDD recorders "you get what you pay for". If you want sophisticated editing and a well-thought-out GUI, the extra money for a Pioneer is worth it. | ||||||||
| almayer posted 2009 Aug 24 11:51 | ||||||||
Thanks for the more than comprehensive answer. To be blunt, I've owned a 720 since it came out in Europe and I never noticed you could just edit it on the fly while watching, I would always edit from the Chapter Edit screen... :oops: Ok, good to know, now I have a serious alternative to the impossible task of repairing mine. Thanks a lot, I'll let you know once I get the new baby. ;-) | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Oct 13 18:24 | ||||||||
| :lol: I replaced the old Pioneer DVR-107 with the Teac drive, I just swapped out the circuit board of the original DVR to the Teac.
WORKS like a charm, and without the service disc or remote! Burns & Finalizes, No problem. I'm buying 5 teac drives from my supplier, did I mention these drives are New? Cheers!  | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Oct 13 23:36 | ||||||||
Thanks for the lead on that, which I did follow up on. However, they quoted me a price of $130/burner. And then -- while they are new -- 10 day non-DOA is all they'll give you on these. Now I'd have to agree that this is way better than the $300. Pioneer was asking for the replacement part, but it's still ridiculous, IMO. I've bought a couple 107s (one was the Mac part, but Orsetto said this was fine), used, for a fraction of that price. Maybe I'll have cause to regret it, but I'd rather take my chances that way. | ||||||||
| almayer posted 2009 Oct 14 08:32 | ||||||||
Hey, any chance your dealer has some more? | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Oct 14 17:12 | ||||||||
How many do you want? Email me for faster service. Gary | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Oct 19 20:39 | ||||||||
That's crazy, someone must have been giving you the run around or they've caught wind of what we are using them for :evil: . I'm going to put one up on ebay and see what happens. Let me know if you are interested buying one. Gary | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Oct 20 10:39 | ||||||||
Thanks. I'm definitely interested. (So, I should search on "Teac" rather than Pioneer . . . or does it matter ?) One of the two used 107s I bought was from a seller in Canada, and even with the higher shipping it was a fraction of what these guys were asking. A couple weeks ago, I missed out on an eBay auction I had flagged, for what was said to be an almost unused 107, because I was traveling. If I'm remembering this right, I thought Orsetto said that the 106 might also work for this usage ? If so, that would be significant, because I think there are more of those turning up for sale. At least, there were a couple of them on eBay a few days ago. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Oct 20 12:40 | ||||||||
You're remembering right, seeker47: you often recall my older posts more accurately than I do! :lol: Yes, about three years ago I hit a wall in sourcing replacement drives and tried some Frankenstein transplants to repair various x10 and x20 series Pioneer recorders. I don't remember all the specifics of it, but long story short the 210, 310, 510 and 810 use the 106 burner and the 220, 225, 320, 420, 520 and 720 use the 107 burner. I discovered the x10 would accept the later 107 burner and the x20 would accept the earlier 106 burners. Accessing the diagnostic screens with the service remote, you'll note the recorder firmware is pre-programmed to allow use of earlier or later drives. A + symbol indicates a drive newer than the motherboard and a - symbol indicates an "obsolete" but still acceptable replacement burner is installed. THERE IS A CATCH, HOWEVER, and its a big one. You can only swap 106 and 107 OEM Pioneer recorder burners that include the modified controller board. In other words, if you have a Pioneer 310 with a good burner but dead power supply and a Pioneer 520 with a bad burner but good otherwise, you can take the good 106 burner from the 310 and install it in the 520 (using the service remote and data disc to marry the serial numbers). This would be a very unusual and unlikely scenario for most people. The easier and more common approach is to find a generic burner of whatever type your recorder uses (106, 107 or 109) and swap the controller boards to trick the recorder into thinking its the original drive. You cannot do the "swap the controller board" trick between a 106 and a 107 because the boards are different sizes: this is why "upgrading" or "downgrading" your recorder with an earlier or later burner only works if the replacement burner was harvested from another Pioneer recorder. I hope I'm being clear with this information, its confusing and hard to describe. :shock: The mounting brackets in the recorders are different for the 106 and 107, so you have to change around some screws and leave some off if you use the "wrong" burner for your recorder model (the drive will still mount securely). Note the 530 and 630 series recorders use the later 109 burner which is much smaller. In theory it should work in a 510 or 520 if you could jerry-rig a secure mounting strategy and your motherboard uses the press-to-fit ribbon cables (some early x10 models use generic IDE connectors that won't fit). And again, any 109 used in an x10 or x20 would need to be harvested from a Pioneer x30 recorder to guarantee it has the recorder-compatible controller board. The x30 recorders do not have room in the chassis to accept any drive model except the 109 they were designed for: the only way to replace the burner in an x30 is to swap its controller board with a generic 109 burner, or a complete 109 harvested from another x30 recorder. I've mentioned before that the easiest route to a good working 107 burner is to buy a "broken" Pioneer 220 or 225 recorder off eBay. Nine out of ten "broken" 220s and 225s suffer from premature power supply meltdowns: the recorder is dead but the burner often still has a lot of life left in it. It will also already have a Pioneer recorder control board installed, meaning you don't have to disassemble it to swap any boards: just remove it from the dead host recorder and pop it into yours. "Dead" 220 and 225 recorders often sell for less than $40. The Pioneer x10 and x20 models require using the Pio service remote and Type 1 service data disc to re-match the serial numbers any time a burner is disconnected and reinstalled, even if its the original burner it came with. Do not disconnect your original burner until/unless you have the service remote and disc (as detailed in the Pio 520 repair threads here on VH). The later x30 recorders are a little easier because they do "remember" their original burner serial numbers when the burner is removed and replaced. As long as you swap the original controller board into your replacement 109 burner, the x30 recorders will almost always start right up as if nothing had changed: they won't insist on the service remote/service disc routine. Every so often, though, I do run across an x30 that insists on the service routine, in which case I do have to use the tools to match the serial numbers. This happens most often on the American 633 model, which is an absolute terror to repair. | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Oct 20 18:38 | ||||||||
Item number 260493900607 on ebay right now. Believe me these TEAC drives are new, and with the circuitboard swap your recorder won't notice the difference. My DVR-520h didn't notice the difference and it burns discs just like when I bought it. It also has no problem working with DVD-RW's, I've tested it three times now. Cheers! Gary 
 | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Oct 21 12:50 | ||||||||
More good reference for us to hold onto. Thanks.
Generally, I need some sort of a "trigger" to recall a detail like that. In this case, I have an old A06 burner that was in a computer for less than a year, before it got replaced by a 108. There must have been some good reason why I kept it all this time, and I'm thinking this must have been due to your post. Who knows -- it may come in handy some day. I'm responsible for my 520, and another one I got for a relative, when the model was being closed out. The HDD and burner sides will probably be covered. Now I just have to keep a watchful eye on those dubious Chinese capacitors ! But I gotta say, IF ONLY this replacement process was as easy as it seems to have been for those Lite-On and Polaroid recorder models, we'd have it all. | ||||||||
| psymaster posted 2009 Oct 25 20:24 | ||||||||
| Ebay Item number 260496679906, Teac Drive replacement. | ||||||||
| almayer posted 2009 Oct 27 07:01 | ||||||||
| A question for Orsetto (and anyone else): my 720 was already dezoned when I bought it. If I know swap the dead drive with a NEC, and change the controller board, would it still be dezoned or not? :?: | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Oct 27 11:43 | ||||||||
| I'm not sure if the "de-zoning" process is applied to the motherboard, the drive controller board, or both. But it doesn't really matter: as long as you swap your original burner control board into the new TEAC, your 720 will assume nothing has changed because the old board will report itself as still present when you put the TEAC in your 720. Any changes you made to the original board will carry over intact when you swap drives.
I will again note here, in case this point was lost in all the other details earlier, that the x10 and x20 Pioneers might not necessarily accept their burners back without using the Pioneer Service Remote and Service Disc. If you replace the burner, and on powerup the front display reads HDD ERR or some other ERR, you will need to investigate the massive "change HDD in Pioneer 520" thread here on VH for tips on how to "fake" the service remote and obtain a service disc. The most current, best info on this is at the end of that thread, so I'd recommend starting at the most recent post and working your way backward until you find the info you need (the bulk of the thread dates back 3-4 years and covers early failed experiments, of only academic interest now that proper solutions have been documented later in the thread). With the service remote, service disc and instructions in hand, its a two-minute task to "re-marry" the burner (or hard drive) to the recorder motherboard. All you really have to do is write down the ten-digit CPRM code printed on the small white UPC label located on the rear panel of your recorder, usually near the AC socket. You enter the service mode using the service remote, clear the CPRM number, and re-enter it. Then you back out of service mode, and you're done. All Pioneer x30 models, and some x10/x20 units, "remember" the CPRM marriage code as long as you swap the original controller board into your new burner: apparently these units have a separate non-volatile memory that keeps track of the CPRM number even if the burner is disconnected. But many x10/x20 units "forget" the CPRM matching the moment you disconnect the burner, requiring the service tools to re-enter the code number. There is no way of knowing beforehand whether your 510, 520, 720 is a version that will ask for the service tools: you just have to try the burner exchange and see what happens. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Nov 13 14:48 | ||||||||
| Uh-Oh ! I'm finally hitting an apparent impasse with the original burner in my 520. Just had a Copy job (two 1-hour programs with commercials removed, totaling 3.8G, which should not ordinarily have posed a problem) that bombed out on two successive attempts using TYGO2 blanks. The error reported by the 520 was "Cannot complete Copy." From the appearance of the disc, it looks like the burn went all the way or very nearly so, but the finalizing option is greyed out. Later, I will probably inspect the failed discs with IsoBuster, to see what might actually be on there and if it might be salvageable. For the moment, the biggest problem is losing (the easier) xfer options on that DVDR, whose HDD has just 10 hours worth of free space remaining. I may have to actually watch some of that stuff to clear space. At some point, I'm going to look into Puzzler's DV-Out method, and of course replace that burner.
Up until now -- four years in, and a great many discs burned -- there were only a very few occasional hiccups, involving "COPY ERR" errors on much more heavily edited Copy List items. I'd like to troubleshoot a bit before embarking on the whole burner replacement thing, which I don't really have time for now anyway. I'm going to try some old Sony 8x media (dating from the time when it was actually good), maybe wipe the spindle area and use some compressed air. Anything else I should try that does not involve opening the case, Orsetto ? | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Nov 13 16:27 | ||||||||
| I feel your pain, seeker47: when I see the dreaded "cannot complete copy" alert, I want to kill myself, especially if it occurs on my 531 (which takes forever and a day to repair vs the much simpler 520). If you are getting this alert using TY 8x media, the burner is probably a ticking time bomb: normally "cannot complete copy" only triggers with junky 16x media like TDK or Staples. When Pio burners start failing, theres no predictable logic: I would not be at all surprised to hear it burns awhile longer if you switch to your new-old-stock Sony 8x discs (Pioneers really liked the old Sony 8x media: it almost always burns to completion, even in a dying Pio- too bad they don't make it anymore).
The optical drives in the earlier x10, x20 and x30 Pioneers fail specifically (and only) due to laser burnout. The later x40, x50 and x60 drives fail from a combination of factors, the first usually being mechanical (dust and finger oils accumulate on the disc spindle) followed by laser wear later on. When the Cannot Complete Copy symptom is caused by the "dirty spindle" problem, it can usually be handled by the "KFC" trick (lick your fingertip and rub the wet underneath the DVD clear center area before loading). Your 520 uses a different spindle that doesn't suffer from grime issues, so if changing media doesn't solve your problems the laser is worn and the burner needs to be replaced. The good news is, you've been following this thread a long time so you know what to do. And if it makes you feel any better, the 510 and 520 are the most receptive models when it comes to the "swap controller boards" trick: it never fails on a 520, as long as your replacement burner has a good laser and you reassemble everything correctly. Good luck! :) | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Nov 14 10:54 | ||||||||
Thanks for the reply, Orsetto. Yes, I've still got at least a couple unopened spindles of that old, good, Sony 8x. I re-tried with one of those blanks, and it seems to have burned about as far as the TY did, before the "cannot complete copy" error appears. (And this was also just after I'd left the 520 cold for several hours.) The curious thing is that it was working just fine the previous times I had used it, no signs of trouble. Then I go away for 10 days, and after getting back the first things I went to move off the HDD suddenly led to this. "Out of a clear blue sky", as the lyrics go in that U2 song. Somehow I thought the burner might surprise me and recover for awhile, but no sign of that either. Had the bright idea of trying to finalize that disc on the 640, but no dice.
So, forget about lens cleaning, or anything like that ?
Hopefully, I had the foresight to save those instructions to a discrete "How To" file. Otherwise, it's going to be a lot of thread surfing. Then I just need time to take on the repair project. Meanwhile, I've had some hurried experimentation based on that unfinalized disc. I extracted the contents with IsoBuster, and took a quick look at a couple of the guides for it that are linked here. One of them said all you need are the VOBs, which is not quite correct. There were four of these, each about 800M in size. CX2D reckoned the first of these to be 23 minutes long, which seems about right, but said the others were 3 - 5 minutes long. NOT. So I ran 'em through FixVTS, got some IFOs from that, but then CX2D reckons the whole group totaling 4 hours 20 minutes. Uhhh, don't think so. (It helps to know what you are doing, and I clearly don't !) Tried to rename some of the files more appropriately, in order to structure a playable DVD manually and burn it with ImgBurn, but that didn't go too well either. Finally, I used that old, crude trick of renaming just the VOBs as MPG files. Much to my surprise, these seem to play in the Oppo. When there is time to watch them, I'll find out how complete the uncompleted Copy from the 520 actually was. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Nov 14 17:44 | ||||||||
| Lens cleaning almost never works to fix the 510, 520 or 530 models with the old-school Pio burners. I'm not saying a random owner won't get cigarette smoke or a cat hair stuck to the lens, it happens, but as a general rule the older Pios are fairly good at keeping their lenses free of dirt. In the rare event their problem actually IS a dirty lens, disassembly is required to get the dirt off (cleaning discs won't cut it). Age is the most prominent factor here: the 520 burners have a mean lifespan of 3 years under normal moderate use. Since you say you've had yours 4 years, its time is probably up, thats all. You already have a spare 107 burner, service remote clone, and service disc stockpiled, so you're covered for a burner replacement. To save you searching thru old threads, I'll recap the complete procedure here:
1. Turn on your 520. 2. Open the tray. 3. Unplug the power cord so the tray remains open. 4. Grasp the cosmetic front tray bezel on both sides between thumb and index fingers, letting your other fingers rest gently on the exposed tray. Slowly but firmly press upwards with your thumbs, altering pressure side to side, until you feel the tray front start to give. Keep pressing firmly upwards until the tray front comes off. Set it aside. Push the "naked" tray all the way back into the unit. 5. Remove all side and rear cabinet screws. Set them aside with a note where they go back in: the side screws are crudely threaded, the rear panel screws are finer-thread machine screws. Take the cover off. 6. Depending on date of your 520s mfr, the burner is attached to a standard white Molex power plug and either a direct micro ribbon data cable, or a micro ribbon cable to a small IEDE adaptor board. Other ribbon cables may be taped to the top of the burner. The burner is secured to the bottom of the chassis by two custom brackets on either side. 7. Carefully remove any cloth tape holding cables against the top of the burner. Set the tape aside for re-use. Remove the screws that secure the burner brackets to the bottom plate, set them aside. If you have small fingers and enough clearance, try to wiggle the white power plug and the EIDE board off the back of the burner. If you can't get them off, try to pull the burner up and out with the cords still attached. You may have difficulty clearing the power supply and tuner boards- go slowly and carefully, its OK to slightly dislodge the surrounding parts momentarily as you remove the burner. When you get the burner free of the chassis, pull out the power and data cables. (Newer 520s use a press-fit direct micro ribbon data cable, when you pull it out note which side the contacts are on so you replace it properly.) 8. With the burner completely free from the chassis, unscrew the two side brackets and note their placement for re-use. 9. Carefully unwind the cloth tape surrounding the front of the burner, set aside for re-use Carefully remove the foil tapes covering the bottom access screws and set aside for re-use. There is no way to remove the foil tape without wrinkling it: don't worry about its appearance. 10. Examine the front plastic burner frame. You will see four small square holes in the metal case, one on each side and two on the bottom. These holes secure the plastic retaining clips for the plastic frame. Poke a ballpoint pen tip or a jewellers screwdriver in each hole to unlatch the clips. The plastic frame should pop off the burner. Set it aside. 11. Place the burner upside down on your workspace, with the front pointing away from you. Remove the bottom plate screws and set them aside. Lift off the bottom cover. You'll see a large green main controller board. The board is held in place with a couple of hard-to-see but easy to unlatch plastic clips. Several small ribbon cables connect the board to the laser assembly beneath. 12. The ribbon cables will either be pressure-fit or have very thin locking collars. The locking collars can be unlatched using a fingernail on either side and wiggling towards the cable, the cable will slide out easily. When all cables are detached, ease the board out by lifting it past its retaining clips. 12. Take a break: have a beer or a snack- you earned it! :wink: 13. Straighten a paper clip, and press it into the emergency tray release hole at the front of your replacement burner. When the tray opens, remove its front edge the way you did on the recorder burner in step 4, then press the bare tray back into the burner. Open up your replacement burner in exactly the same way you did the recorder burner. Remove its controller board. 14. Install the original board from your recorders burner into the replacement burner. Connect the cables, and don't forget to lock any ribbon collars. Screw the bottom plate back on. Take the plastic front frame removed from the original burner, and snap it onto the front of the new burner. 15. Work your way backwards from steps 9 thru 1 above. Be sure you replace all foil tapes, cloth tapes and foam bumpers onto the new burner in the same locations they were removed from the old burner. If the HDD ribbon cable was taped to the top of the burner, be sure it doesn't get snagged when you put the new burner in. Secure it to the top of the new burner. 16. When the recorder is fully reassembled, plug in the power. Turn it on. Wait a few minutes and observe the front panel and any displays shown on your TV. If there is any CPRM or HDD ERR alert, or a TV display to the effect "drive settings are not correct", you will need to activate service mode. If you DO NOT see any warnings, attempt to view the HDD navigator. If that works OK, switch to DVD mode and load a blank disk. If the machine still does not issue any warnings, attempt a HS copy of an HDD recording to DVD, with the finalize option set. If it creates and finalizes a DVD without complaining at all, you're done. Open the disk tray and snap the decorative endpiece back on. 17. If at any point the recorder complains of an ERR, you'll need to reset the CPRM code. Look on the rear panel for a secondary small white label with a nine-digit code number, its located near the fan or the AC socket. Write down the nine digits. 18. On your service remote, press ESC and then STEREO. Service mode will activate and a service display will appear on your TV. Enter the nine-digit number you wrote down using the service remote number keys, then press STOP. 19. Press ESC and STEREO again, enter the nine digit number again, and press SEARCH. 20. The recorder will ask for the ID Data Disc. Load the service disc and close the tray. After a moment, your TV should display "Rom Write OK!" 21. Pres CLEAR on the service remote. The recorder will exit service mode. Remove the service disc BUT DO NOT CLOSE THE TRAY. Turn the recorder off, the tray will close itself. Wait a moment, and turn power back on. Your 520 should work normally with no ERR alerts from this point on. (If your TV displays Rom Write NG! instead of Rom Write OK! in step 20, don't panic. Sometimes the recorder trips over itself, or you enter the nine digits in the wrong order, and have to start the CPRM process over again. It nearly always "takes" the second time around.) (In 9 out of 10 cases, a burner swap does not engage the HDD in any way. However, I have noted a couple of isolated instances when the recorder decides it wants to "initialize the HDD" after a burner swap. This results in wiping your HDD. If you go into the disc navigator and don't see anything, or the recorder offers the normally-invisible "Initailize HDD" option in the Disc Setup screen, you'll be forced to format the HDD in order to complete the three-way marriage between motherboard, burner and HDD. Having to initialize the HDD after a burner swap is exceedingly rare, but it is a possibility.) | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Nov 15 19:16 | ||||||||
Thanks so much for that, orsetto ! I'm sure it will save me a lot of time and trouble; it is greatly appreciated. It may be awhile before I get to do this operation. The burner failure came along at one of the worst possible times. I'd rather proceed with this deliberately and carefully, without rushing. Fortunately, the 640 has been carrying most of the load here for quite awhile, and it is only about half as long in service as the 520. And I do still intend to investigate Puzzler's DV Out method at some point, just because it is intriguing. (Particularly if it works here.) I haven't been to Hkan's site in quite awhile, but the last time I looked around there I don't recall seeing this step by step. It would make a good sticky for his archives. Then, the one additional thing I'd like to see there are photos of the capacitor(s) and where they're located, what they should and should not look like, and exactly what replacement part to get for them if they go bad. There have been several models for which this info might be different (?), but we could start with the most common ones. Then, I think we'd have it covered. (I'm sorry, but I just don't believe in spending hundreds on an important appliance and having it turn out to be "disposable", when there exist effective counter-measures to extend its service life considerably.)
Sounds like I should probably do whatever I can to get unsaved stuff off of there first, whether via the DV or the clumsily improvised method I used for those two show episodes, provided the burner isn't yet 100 % gone and it's repeatable. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Nov 15 20:27 | ||||||||
You might try what worked for me the last time the 109 burner in my 531 started failing. The 531 is one of the three "haunted mansion" Pioneer models with the accursed TVGOS feature that makes them hell on wheels to service: the burner swap for the 520 is nothing compared to a burner swap on the 531. It takes days of non-stop effort and screwing around before the 531 settles down after a burner replacement, and last time I serviced it it gave me fits because it just refused to finalize anything even after the third different burner exchange in as many days. I thought perhaps it was finally a junker, so scrambled to figure out how I could offload what was on the HDD. By pure chance, I discovered it would still let me go into the Disc Setup menu and initialize a blank DVD-R as "VR Mode". With a DVD in VR Mode, finalization is not necessary and you can HS copy titles from the HDD in the Pios native HDD format. This means the titles remain "live" and can be HS lossless copied back onto your 520 HDD after you repair its burner. VR Mode backup discs are compatible across Pioneers entire product line, so you could also HS copy the contents onto your 640 HDD (if you have enough room on it). You could then make normal finalized DVDs from the 520 files now loaded on your 640. Odds are when you swap the burner your 520 HDD contents will be preserved, so you probably won't need the VR backup discs, but its a nice safety cushion to have (assuming your dying 520 burner can still generate VR discs before replacing it). The only caveat with VR Mode DVD-Rs is they have a maximum capacity of 4.3GB, as opposed to the 4.4 of a normal finalizable DVD-R. Some movies on your 520 HDD that go all the way to 4.4GB in size may need to be split over two VR mode discs to avoid real-time re-encoding. Since the VR discs are just digital carriers, or temporary storage, this isn't a concern. Once the material is back on the HDD you can make a normal single finalized DVD from it. Note VR Mode is the standard in all recorders for burning DVD+RW media, but it is used differently when you initialize a DVD-R "the wrong way" as VR in a Pioneer. The DVD-R is burned differently, presumably under less power, so if your recorder won't burn +RW anymore the -R initialized as VR is a good last ditch alternative. To my knowledge only Pioneer offers this totally non-standard VR format option for DVD-R media: its a brilliant little trick that can save your bacon if your burner fails with important stuff on your HDD. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Nov 16 12:05 | ||||||||
Wow, that's a great idea ! I'm sure I've made VR -Rs a few times in the past, but it was either early mistakes or just experimentation. I wasn't aware of such a (deliberate) use for this, but it's another one of those great "hidden" details, and I will definitely try that. The question of the moment -- besides just how far gone that burner really is -- is whether the "Cannot complete Copy" should be taken literally, or whether it is only the finalization that has died, so far. I'll have a better idea on that score when I get a chance to watch those two "Fringe" episodes that went the VOB to MPG route. | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Nov 16 12:18 | ||||||||
| It depends how much of a heavy-duty salvage operation you want to get into using your PC. It isn't the finalization that fails, its the run-up to finalization. "Cannot Complete Copy" inevitably appears before finalization, you'll see this happen even if you tell the machine not to finalize your Video Mode discs. Unfinalized discs are a pain to work with on the PC, as you've seen from your experiments its not a simple matter of just ripping the files and opening them. Plus there's no guarantee where exactly in the burn process the recorder will fail and leave faulty files on the DVD.
"Bastardized" VR Mode DVD-Rs are somehow easier for the failing burner to get "right", I don't understand why but it is evident in use. They burn to completion without the "Cannot Complete Copy" alert, instead you get the "Copy Completed" confirmation that all went well. While the VR files are difficult to read on the PC, your Pioneer 640 will play them like normal DVDs and can also process them losslessly on its hard drive and convert them to normal finalized DVDs. Personally I think this is a much more logical workflow than screwing around with your PC and potentially faulty unfinalized discs, at least until you can fix your 520. Its always better to have more options: reading the VR files on the PC is not much more difficult than reading unfinalized files, and gives you the additional option of the 640 being able to work with them transparently. Unfinalized discs are a hard nut on the PC, and if faulty may not be readable at all in the 640. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Nov 16 15:47 | ||||||||
| Update: the VR on -R was no dice: that option is greyed out. I even did the VR init on the 640, and it still comes up greyed out ("Please insert a recordable disc") on the 520. So, that burner went from fully functional just before the last trip, to this, with no evident gradual decline giving any hint. However, I just burned those two eps onto a TDK -RW, and am transferring them to the 640 -- more as proof of concept than anything else.
I would not have expected this to work, since someone here (not you) told me that writing RW takes more laser power than the write-once burns. It seems pretty clear to me that just playing a disc requires the least amount of laser power, but the escalation of what is required on burning appears to be other than what I thought. Anyway, unlike the 640, the 520 does not do RAM, so for now this looks like the one disc-based option that is still on the table. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Nov 18 11:46 | ||||||||
| Further Update, and this is very strange: on the 2nd. attempt to get some stuff off of the HDD, using the same type of -RW media I've always used, this option too is now greyed out. O.K., I thought, that's it -- now the burner must be officially finito. Just for the hell of it, I then put a blank TYGO2 in, which copied the material to completion and finalized it. Without having much idea what may be going on at the technical level, I had thought that this was a possibility. Not that I think this will last, even to the next burn attempt. But maybe there is some 'Twilight Zone' of burner failure, in which the drive fluctuates between states of
not working | almost working | working before it craps out completely and irretrievably ? | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Nov 19 17:09 | ||||||||
| seeker47, my apologies to you for having wasted your time with my suggestion to try initializing -R discs to VR Mode in your 520 Disc Setup menu. When you reported back the option was "grayed out", I pulled out the Pioneer 510 I had in storage to compare (the 510 came before the 520, they use exactly the same operating system except the 520 adds a dedicated "erase section" screen). When I attempted to initialize a -R blank to VR Mode in my 510, it also refused, indicating VR could only initialize to -RW media. So apparently your 520, like the 510, cannot initialize -R to VR Mode as an emergency option.
I haven't actually used my 510 or a 520 in about two years, so I didn't realize the "initialize -R to VR" trick was not available until the entire Pio OS was revamped with the 530 series and later models. (I primarily use a 540 and a 460 these days.) It would be difficult to double back now and rewrite my earlier posts to incorporate this model difference, so I'll just leave a note here for future reference: The handy tip suggested in my earlier posts to initialize a blank -R disc as another possible option to salvage HDD recordings in the event of a burner wearing down applies only to the 2005 and later Pioneers (x30, x40, x50 and x60 series). The earlier 510, 810, 520, 720 and 920 do not have this non-standard disc formatting feature: if you have difficulty getting those units to finish normal -R or -RW finalized burns your best alternative is to replace the burner asap. It is extremely unlikely replacing the burner will cause any interaction with HDD recordings, this has only happened twice to me in the course of repairing over 30 Pioneers (and both times were with the eccentirc 533/633 models). Making VR Mode -Rs is a nice backup cushion to have, but not strictly necessary. Don't be afraid to replace the burner following instructions in this thread.
Yes :wink: , there is a "Twilight Zone" failure curve, absolutely. The machine will mysteriously rally and burn normally in spurts. When you realize it has started working again, take advantage and offload as much of the HDD as you can prior to any servicing. | ||||||||
| Seeker47 posted 2009 Nov 20 13:29 | ||||||||
Thanks, I will. This quick item probably belongs more in the "repair 520" thread, but that one is already about 20 X longer than this one, and I'm here right now. Turned on the 640 yesterday and it came up with the notice "Hard Disk Repair Completed." I never told it to do any such thing, and I've never used the HDD Optimize function. So, was that any cause for concern ? Totally wild guess: could it have just detected some bad sectors and locked them out, as part of some automatic firmware routine ? | ||||||||
| orsetto posted 2009 Nov 21 00:09 | ||||||||
| I was just wondering the same thing myself today: my 460, 450 and 640 all powered on with the "repairing hard drive: completed" alert. I've seen it once or twice before, so I wasn't unduly alarmed, but it was pretty odd for all three units- a 2006, a 2007, and a 2008- to all do it at the same time. I find the SATA-based 450 and 460 tend to do the hdd repair more often than the EIDE 640, but they all run the routine periodically. Assuming it continues to take just a couple seconds, and I haven't had any power surges, I choose not to worry about it. I figure if the machine is smart enough to do some basic housekeeping, its a good thing.
According to all the Pio instruction manuals, the "repairing hdd" function invokes if the machine is unexpectedly powered off or interrupted during a recording. Lately I've been manually stopping timer recordings a lot, that might have a similar effect. |
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