Forum Archive Home -> Capturing -> In search for an uncompressed video capture card
In search for an uncompressed video capture card | ||||||||
| xyzxyz posted 2009 Oct 20 08:35 | ||||||||
| Hello
I would really like to convert all my old VCR tapes into digital content. Most of those tapes if not all of them were recorded via composite so the quality is really not that high. My issue is that I currently have this Hauppauge PVR-150 TV card with composite input that lets me record from the VCR, BUT - it has this hardware MPEG-2 encoder that just saves all my captured recording as MPEG-2 video with me having no control what so ever on the final video. :evil: I can convert it later to DivX but the card built in MPEG-2 encoder really messed up the video source already (+the audio sync..). Besides, I just hate MPEG-2 content, its so 1996. :x I would prefer a cheap used card that can capture an uncompressed video stream, leaving me the flexibility to encode it later with DivX or maybe even MPEG-4 AVC for best quality and size. That card can even have only composite input, as all my content are old video tapes. I would prefer a card that can capture uncompressed video up to 1080 whice can uses me for future capturing, but I'm guessing i don't have the $$$ for those type of cards yet :) Thanks in advance for your help | ||||||||
| hech54 posted 2009 Oct 20 08:59 | ||||||||
| I'm staying out of this one. There is SO much wrong with what you want and the reasons for wanting it...I don't know where to begin...:) | ||||||||
| filmboss80 posted 2009 Oct 20 09:10 | ||||||||
| I share hech54's sentiments, but I'm dumb enough to try to help anyway...
Using the type of card you described for VHS captures is akin to buying a 10-liter bucket to contain 3 drops of water. All the same, you can certainly look at the products at www.blackmagic-design.com to find something close to what you're looking for. However, ADS and Canopus make nice analog-to-digital interfaces that will allow you to capture to DV-AVI, which is a fine codec for VHS and DV sources, and is great for frame-accurate edits. Unless you are doing multi-generational enhancements to the video footage, uncompressed video would not really be necessary. And DV-AVI may also be "so 1996" (or whatever year it came out), but we are talking function, not fashion. Do you want to get the job done? | ||||||||
| jman98 posted 2009 Oct 20 09:17 | ||||||||
| I also wondered if I should even reply, but I have a few things to say.
The PVR-150 is supposed to be able to do AVI capturing. I have the PVR-350 which uses a different chipset and the 350 definitely cannot do AVI capturing, but I'm positive that I read that the 150 can. Have you tried that? While the PVR-250 and 350 are top notch cards, the 150 is a completely different animal. The 250 and 350 work for basically everyone who installs them (I have never had a sync issue with mine). The 150 works for some people and others have nothing but problems. That's just the nature of the card. And if you have problems with this card, there probably is nothing you can do to fix them. MPEG-2 is fine. Yes it's old, but it doesn't suck. It's good enough for a lot of needs. Although I hate their cards, a lot of ATI cards were able to record AVI from video input. Perhaps one of them would work well for you, although again, I don't recommend them. I have not personally seen a video capture card capable of recording VHS input at 1080. Perhaps a card exists somewhere that can do that, but I don't know about it. I'm finding it difficult to understand why you want to do this since VHS tape has a resolution lower than DVD. One source says its roughly equivalent to 333x480. I don't think that capturing VHS at 1080 is going to look very good. | ||||||||
| bendixG15 posted 2009 Oct 20 10:05 | ||||||||
I have put hundreds of VHS tapes on DVDs and I really believe jman98 is correct. You are doing good if you can get your tape close to DVD quality. | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Oct 20 14:48 | ||||||||
| Hauppauge's FAQ page for the WINTV PVR 150 says this:
"The WinTV-PVR-150 records directly to MPEG using onboard Hardware encoders. Most third party capture applications are looking to attach to a card or driver that supports uncompressed video recordings. Like AVI files. These programs cannot capture video directly using the PVR-150. (ie. MovieMaker, Media Encoder, Pinnacle Studio, Adobe Premiere)" It looks like the WINTV PVR 150 does not support DV-AVI. As others advised, to capture VHS as DV, look for a used PYRO A /V Link capture device from ADS or a used ADVC55 from Canopus, but they will not be as inexpensive as most used MPEG-2 TV cards. Nothing capable of capturing in 1080i or 1080p resolution will be cheap. The HD TV cards I have seen either capture a TV transport stream as-is or convert it to H.264. I looked at Blackmagic's Intensity cards a while back They are the only ones I have seen that can capture HD input as uncompressed video. I hope you have some very large hard drives, if you plan to do that. | ||||||||
| DereX888 posted 2009 Oct 20 15:11 | ||||||||
You say MPEG-2 is so 1996 and you want 1080 AVCHD... well, I hate to spell it out for you, but do you realize analog VCRs are so 1978? ;) As previous posters said, you want 10 gallon bucket for 3 drops of water. Doesn't make sense. Its like converting VCD to BluRay... If you have a DV camera with pass-thru and neccessary inputs, you may capture your video in DV. It's not raw/uncompressed, but still it is probably the least compressed avi you can get without buying anything (assuming you have such DV cam).o Look, 640x480 uncompressed avi would be already more resolution than you need, more than what you have stored on those tapes. If you don't have DV camcorder, you can get any cheap chinese unknown-brand capture card (capable of standard resolution uncompressed avi capture) and be done with it for probably $20. | ||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 Oct 20 16:36 | ||||||||
| Aja Kona card with SDI, maybe? I think they all run on Mac.
You'll need a new VCR. This is an answer to what you've asked. But it's not really what you need to be doing, however. :wink: | ||||||||
| guns1inger posted 2009 Oct 20 16:50 | ||||||||
| Do you have a multi-terrabyte Raid array running 10000rpm discs ?
Uncompressed 1080 is going to need a lot of very fast disk - not the sort of thing you find in your average home PC. | ||||||||
| BJ_M posted 2009 Oct 20 17:47 | ||||||||
| lets see - it is what I'm using for uncompressed HD (good news it is less than 1/4 the cost of 3 years ago)
HP Z800 Workstation • Windows Vista® Business 64 • Two (2) Intel® Xeon® Processors X5570, 2.93 GHz, 8 MB cache, 1333 MHz memory, Quad-Core • HP 6GB (6x1GB) DDR3-1333 ECC 2-CPU RAM • NVIDIA Quadro FX4800 1.5GB PCIe Graphics • HP 320GB SATA 7200 1st HDD • 16X DVD+/- RW DL Writer SuperMulti • Integrated HD Realtek ALC262 Audio • HP PS/2 Standard Keyboard • HP USB optical scroll mouse • 850W 85% Efficient Chassis Pioneer BDR-202BK Black Blu-Ray Burner DeckLink HD Extreme Matrox CompressHD Blackmagic Design HDLink Pro. for drive array: G-SPEED eS PRO XL storage system with (12) removable disk drives modules, 2 meter mini-SAS cable Supports multi-stream SD, ProRes 422, uncompressed HD & 2K DPX workflows This above will set you back about $30,000 without monitors and hard drives (scsi 320) and software - figure on another 20,000 min if you use cheap monitors and not to fancy software. then a source HD - can run from 60k to a million depending on a number of factors - mights as well get min. 2k throughout ... the network hardware will run you another 3-5k min. | ||||||||
| xyzxyz posted 2009 Oct 20 21:54 | ||||||||
| lol.. just wanted to rip some VHS tapes..
See.. most of my tapes are family videos.. some of the persons on those videos are no longer with us today and I hate seeing this PVR-150 card making our poor quality memories even poorer.. I guess all I need is a better capture card (still prefer one with non MPEG-2 encoding though..) Thank you all for helping me, really appreciate you guys for explaining me all the different methods and advantages/disadvantages of my subject.
You right, that card is a piece of junk.. I know that there are 2 or maybe 3 versions of it.. I guess I've bought the cheapest one.. I can't really check if it supports AVI encoding, whenever I try to stream the video in VirtualDubMod or any other video editing program, I just can't get the video to work. Heck, sometimes it doesn't want to display anything even with it's own software.. (Edit: usually_quiet says it doesn't support AVI and for that reason doesn't work with any video editing software, so ignore that paragraph).
Oh.. I meant that it would be nice to have a card which combine digital 1080 capture for FUTURE video captures (not from the VCR but from a real 1080 source).. Just wanted to know if I should invest a few more $$ on a card that can do both Analog SD and Digital HD.. never meant to capture anything in other then its native resolution.. so we cleared that big BIG misunderstanding out :)
DVD quality is better then VHS, no doubt. My problem is that the hardware encoder doesn't make it even close to DVD quality.. My mother can actually tell the difference between the source and the VHS-Rip on our SDTV.
I don't understand.. everyone here saying that it will cost me a small fortune to buy an uncompressed SD capture card and you telling me I can get one for 20 bucks? Or is everyone still under the impression i meant a 1080 uncompressed capture card? thx for the camcorder tip, got 3 neighbors with digital cam, I will check to see if they've got pass-thru :) The reason I was looking for an uncompressed video capture card from the first place is that 1.5TB Hard Drives are very cheap now days, and I was looking for a way to keep the video captures untouched for a while.. See.. I only got limited number of VHS tapes (25/30) to convert to digital and since that number is final I can live with the wasted hard drive space, no biggie. I mean.. Every 5 years or so there is a new, more efficient, less space consuming encoding, and just like 2GB of HD content looks twice as good as 4GB DVD content, who can tell what will be in the very near future.. I like to keep my options open instead of messing up the source forever. As you can understand I'm pretty paranoid about the video quality bit by bit, but it's probably just because of my bad experience with the PVR-150.. I trust your opinion when you're all saying there is no reason in uncompressed capturing, especially when the price/outcome value is absurd. In short, I like to be in control when it comes to my encoding, so I prefer using software encoding on my videos. It just has much more flexibility then hardware encoding (clearing the frames, cropping edges, 2/3passes, filters, etc..). But I understand that this is a very expensive issue, so I guess what I basically want, is hardware encoder which will leave me the best possible source (on humble budget) to work with (DV-AVI?) I understand there are 2 options: 1. Capture card that support DV-AVI like the recommended ADVC55. 2. Camcorder with pass-true and a firewire cable. The result of both options supposed to be exactly the same, right? just a matter of convenience? Thank you for reading my doctoral thesis lol :lol: | ||||||||
| usually_quiet posted 2009 Oct 20 22:41 | ||||||||
| @xyzxyz: There are a few things I'd like to clear up.
The Canopus ADVC55 and the ADS PYRO A /V Link are both external devices that require a firewire port to connect to a home computer. I work exclusively with MPEG-2 TV captures. MPEG-2 video can be edited with the right software, just not the programs intended only for use with DV. Good MPEG-2 editing software only re-encodes a few frames around cuts, so very little is lost. However DV is better if you want to use filters and process the video to remove various kinds of noise or correct other problems. You may need a TBC between the VCR and the capture device to get a good result. You may also need a better VCR for playback. Producing good-quality VHS capture is as much an art as a science. There are some guides and lots of threads available on this website on the subject of capturing VHS. You have a lot or reading to do. :) | ||||||||
| hech54 posted 2009 Oct 20 23:49 | ||||||||
Who told you this card is junk? Someone must have told you it was junk because I doubt you've even used it correctly yet. This statement alone:
...leaves me with serious doubts. | ||||||||
| xyzxyz posted 2009 Oct 21 00:42 | ||||||||
Got onboard firewire.. hope its good enough..
Will do, BTW - Is there any sense in capturing from the component output of a VCR for a video which was originally recorded via the composite input? I'm sure I saw some VCRs with component.. but then again, maybe they were DVD+VCR and the component belongs to the DVD part..
Its just my frustration with the specific card of mine, it keeps showing me blank screen on the composite input when my receiver is connected and on and it keeps hanging in 2 different system at my house (both are Core 2 Duo). When it finally agree that there is a composite source to record from, the only capturing option I've got in the WinTV software is a 5 or 6 resolution to choose from.. As I was saying, I couldn't get the card to work with any other software. Being limited to the manufacture mercys is just the worst.. It would be nice to have a card that is supported by all the big video capturing softwares.. | ||||||||
| Cornucopia posted 2009 Oct 21 00:48 | ||||||||
| Well, I'd look at it from an End-to-end systems approach.
You've got VHS tapes as input. You want Highest Quality possible SD avi files on Harddrives as output. Ok. So, uncompressed AVI is RGB 24bit. There are a number of cards that can do either that or uncompressed 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 YUV (the next-best, and next-next best things). But don't stop there, because alot depends on the quality of the signal at the input. Others here may have other opinions, but I myself can tell the difference between RGB24bit SDavi captured via composite vs. S-video vs. component (yes, EVEN for VHS, given the right source deck). Now, there aren't very many VHS-capable decks that have component output, even the best of the pro decks, and they're $$$$. But, there's not much wrong with S-video (for VHS source), and many of the better VHS and SVHS decks have that. Why did I say SVHS? Because pro SVHS decks usually have MUCH better electronics on the decoding side than do their VHS counterparts. Some of the great pro SVHS decks, then, will have High bandwidth, hybrid 2d+3d comb filtering for great chroma separation, SVideo outputs,...AND...a full-featured line TBC built-in. Like I used to use: a Panasonic AG-DS555. And you might want to throw in a pro full-frame TBC in there as well (both get things the other one doesn't). And you want to have all 3 be Genlocked to a master sync source (bars&tone/black generator), and ALL with Power conditioning (makes a difference!!!). So what's all that cost? 1. ~$500 for a used Canopus card that can do composite+Svideo+DV in 2. ~$2500 for a used pro SVHS deck (and a little more for an engineer to bring it back to pristine condition) 3. ~$500 for a used Pro TBC 4. ~$200 for sync gen 5. ~$200 for power conditioning (furman, etc) 6. ~$100 for all the cabling 7. ~$500 for a VERY good used monitor (or at least one good enought with which to discern all these differences in quality) PLUS, you're going to need a different computer that the one you've got, because the DRIVERS for such used cap cards may not be compatible with the system you're currently using. Let's guess at a Win2K machine. So another, fully stocked PC, with plenty of HD space (30 tapes * 2Hrs each = 60 Hrs, but let's say 100 Hrs, = 360k seconds. At 270Mbps, that's ~12 TeraBytes to hold them all). So 8. ~$4000 (just a guess on that one, haven't speced in a while) You're still looking at just shy of $10k! --OR-- You could take your tapes to a PRO Video Xfer service shop. Even if they charge $100/hour (this used to be normal for Xfer, but I'd guess it's high now), they're just getting to the same price as doing it yourself. More likely, they charge will charge less, especially if you do it as a contracted bulk or serial deal for the whole job of all tapes. Heck, if I still had the equipment, I'd do it for $50/hour. So now you're down to $5k to get it all done, by people who know what they're doing and have the equipment to do it right. Just make sure the credentials are correct and get samples first (no $ if the quality isn't what you expected, etc). They give you files of your choice on a disc or your choice. Lot less hassle for you... That's my take. Scott | ||||||||
| lordsmurf posted 2009 Oct 21 06:06 | ||||||||
Exactly. DV is not an ideal capture format. (Consumer DV25 NTSC 4:1:1) Explained at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/video-8-capture-1614.html
Yep. This is the sort of work I do every day, too. VHS to DVD may sound easy when Best Buy offers $50 devices in the ads (crap devices with impossible promises, I might add!), but after you get started, you realize it's not that easy. Good quality costs a few bucks more, involves a LOT more equipment than originally thought, and it takes a lot of time to learn the hardware and software needed to tackle the project. Either pay a pro and get it done, or spend months/years sitting at a computer churning out lower quality for the same price (or more!) as a pro would have charged you. I do want to add, however, that those "tape to DVD" or "film to DVD" stores found in a shopping center usually aren't very good. If video were food, you'd want a restaurant with an experienced chef. Those places are more like Taco Bell or McDonald's -- not an establishment with a gourmet menu. | ||||||||
| hech54 posted 2009 Oct 21 06:28 | ||||||||
Go straight from the VCR to the card...and use the shortest, best quality cable you own.
That's all I have too(resolution is not the proper term for it however). The 12.0mBit/sec MPEG setting is higher than DVD standard allows. It leaves you a little headroom for filtering or what-have-you.
Yes it would...no arguments there...but I honestly don't think you've fully explored the option you have already. | ||||||||
| victoriabears posted 2009 Oct 21 10:33 | ||||||||
| A lot of posts, but I might have missed it, why not try a dvd recorder, get one, try it for a few days, of not liked, return it if that option is available in Israel.
TMPG Mpeg editor is very good in my experience. Start simple, see if you like the results, if not , then start adding options, like a TBC and other suggestions made by the very experienced other members. |
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