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Having Trouble with DIY Telecine (8mm) System

RTLdan posted 2007 Nov 24 00:20

Hello, I have been trying to construct the diy telecine outlined here: http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/diytelecine/ Everything has been done well in accordance with the directions, and seems to be working properly EXCEPT for the Aerial imaging system. Here is my problem: I have the camera pointing at the flat side of the condenser lens, as directed. I then have my video camera pointing at the curved side of the condenser lens. But no matter what I try, I cannot get any sort of virtual image described. I've experimented quite a bit with distances - both projector to aerial imaging box, and imaging box to camera. What happens when I film is that all I see is one big circle of light. If I pull out a little bit, I can see the lens apperatus on the projector. If I put a piece of paper where the camera lens is, I can see that an images is indeed being projected. I cannot understand what I'm doing incorrectly, or what needs adjustment. (I can post video of what I'm seeing if it helps anyone.) I tried emailing the author of the website, but I have not heard back -- going on months now. If any one could help me troubleshoot this, or has any information on aerial projection/imaging systems, I would be most obliged. Thank you! -Daniel R. Portland, Or

ronypony posted 2007 Nov 27 15:19

HI Found your post on this forum....I can help you with your telecine set up. I have constructed the same unit following the same instructions. The system works well for me and I get pretty high quality transfers. I dont think it really matters what side of the condeser lens you use to obtain your ariel image. You need to ensure that you have the correct shutter speed set on your camcorder and use manual white balance if your camcorder has this feature. Could you post some images of your set up and images of what you are getting on the lens. The lens is used to magnify the gate of the projector as I am sure you know...once this done its about positioning your camcorder at the optimum distance from the lens to record the ariel image. Did you use the Eumig 610 D projector suggested in the instructions ? You should also use manual focus feature of the camcorder not auto focus or the focusing system of the camcorder will 'hunt' to attempt to keep the moving images in focus. On the last page of the instructions the author takes you through the set up very accurately....did you follow these instructions carefully ? If you did I cannot understand why you cannot see the projected image on the lens. If you use your eyes rather than looking through the camcorder you should be able to see the magnified ariel image of the projected film as it passes through the gate. Look here to see a transfer I did recently...the first half of the film is very dark...wait until second half (the children and dog) to see what is possible with this set up http://looksharpfilms.blip.tv/

ronypony posted 2007 Nov 27 16:36

Further to my last post I am going to try to post some images for you to look at of my set up and photographs of the ariel image created on the condenser lens...here goes The top 3 photos show the ariel image created on the condenser lens. Then a photo of the lens box. The last photo is of my setup showing distance from projector lens to the flat side of the condenser lens ..approx 20 cm As you can see I constructed a jig to mount the projector on along with the lens box so that I dont have to mess about setting them up in the future ...saves a lot of time and I only have to worry about positioning my camcorder at the optimum distance from the lens to record the ariel image. Hope this helps.

RTLdan posted 2007 Nov 30 03:34

Hello Rony, Let me start by saying THANK YOU for helping me. I appreciate it greatly. Read what you said pretty thoroughly.... I did try to follow the author's instructions, and have re-read a couple times, so I'm not sure what I'm not reading right, or missing. This is the one thing I didn't really mess with: "You need to ensure that you have the correct shutter speed set on your camcorder" Perhaps that is my problem? I'm going to dig up the camera manual and figure out how to set it on the camera. Oh, and the other thing I haven't done is connected it up through the software so that the camera only captures when the microswitch triggers. I figured that I would be able to see the virtual image in the camera without triggering in sync with the frame. Will I be able to see the image, or does it need to be capturing through the software to see it? Yes, I am using the 610D. One thing that is notable is I have not widened the gate as was suggested by the author of the tutorial. However, if I'm not mistaken, that step was optional, even though not doing so reduced the visible frame by 25%. I had planned on widening the gate after my initial test. And as you know, my test produced no results. I've attached some pictures of the setup (a little haphazard, but only for testing. It will be in a better environment when it's finished. ) And a youtube link to a video of what my camera is capturing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5kmLvnj-Ls Once again, Thank you for your patience and help, Daniel[/img]

surfmonkee posted 2007 Nov 30 03:57

I have a load of Super 8 movies to transfer and while I can't offer you any advice, I just wanted to say thanks for posting the images. Its very cool to see your set up, how lovely to see a movie projector! I must dig mine out (euming) and do my movies be4 its too late!

ronypony posted 2007 Nov 30 12:04

Hi Daniel No problem...happy to help...I know how frustrating things can get if you dont see what you expect :? Your set up is almost identical to mine except for the mirror in the box which I did'nt bother with...to me its just another opportunity for dust etc to find its way onto the final capture. I simply perform a horizontal flip in Sony Vegas to correct the reversed capture...hope that makes sense. I cannot,looking at your photos see any reason why you should not be able to see an ariel image projected onto the lens. This is the first thing to get sorted out. You say in your original post that when you place a piece of white paper in front of the projector lens you see images...by the way you do not have to be capturing to see the ariel image on the lcd screen of your camcorder. Dont be disheartedned ...you simply have to tweak your set up to start capturing your films... This is what I would do.. Project your film at 6fps onto the mirror which as you probably know has to be exactly positioned at 45 degrees to the lens in the box. Have your camcoder out of the way...crouch down and look at the front of the condenser lens...adjust the focus knob on the projector until you can see an ariel image on the lens..as in the first of my photos...you might have to mess about a bit with the distance of the box in relation to the front of the projector lens...be patient you will be able to achieve an image.....I see your box is designed for a mirror...as you can see mine is slightly different because I left out the mirror part....however this should not be an issue. The position of your eyes/head has to be in the right place to see the image..if you are slightly askew you wont see it...its the same when you come to setting the position of your camcorder....the position of it is critical...it took me ages to get right...thats why I built the jig to hold the projector and box...removing that step in the chain so that I only have to worry about getting camcorder and lens distance/position correct. Once you can see the ariel image its time to attempt positioning camcorder from lens....looking at your photos things look pretty good. Does your camcorder have at least 12x optical zoom (not digital) ? Use manual focus on the camcorder. Set manual white balance if your cam has this feature. Set the shutter speed....that is the f number...I find around f5 to be good...but adjust if necessary. There is no reason I can see why you will not get the projected images onto your lens. As far as widening the gate is concerned...I did this...its pretty easy if you take your time and use a watch maker's file (a very small one)...you will be able to see the sprocket holes of thefilm in the first of my photos. Worth doing but take your time if you do attempt it. The triggering of the microswitch can be troublesome...ts only the tensioner that causes the switch to trip on and off...different filmstocks cause differences in tension...I only have the top of the switch screwed to the tensioner so that I can adjust its position by swinging it (very carefully)...its the weakest part of the design...others have designed better triggering using an optical switch mounted in a different part of the projector. Persevere with it ..you will get it to work....even capturing in real time at 18fps gives very good results. Are you using cinecap to capture your frames ? Let me know how you get on...shame I'm in the UK or I would pop round and get it all sorted out for you :) Actually looking at your photos again and your you tube movie I think the camcorder would have to be a lot closer to the lens...trial and error with the positioning though....I would try moving camcorder much closer....you are almost there .... Just had another thought..you did fit a diffuser and lower wattage lamp to the projecter did'nt you ? Without the lower wattage bulb the light source would be far too bright..I used a 20w bulb..also without the diffuser you will get a hot spot...

RTLdan posted 2007 Nov 30 17:52

Hi Rony, Thanks again for the help you've been providing!! I can't tell you how grateful I am... Anyhow, yes, it is fitted with a 20w halogen bulb and a piece of opal diffusing glass. I'm going to try and do everything you said. I also switched the condenser lens to a normal housing without the mirror, just to insure there is nothing happening at the 45 deg. angle. If nothing else, I'll at least try and get the image visible to my eye in the condenser lens. I took a look in my camera's manual and it says optical zoom is only 10x, digital zoom is 120x. Will 10x not cut it at all? I do eventually plan to buy a better camera for this (3ccd, maybe hidef.) but will 10x even let me capture anything? Thank you so much! -Daniel P.S. - I'm not sure my camera allows me to set the shutter speed. Could this also be a problem?

ronypony posted 2007 Dec 01 08:31

From what I can remeber from the instructions the camcorder should be at least 12x....however I am pretty sure you could still obtain some kind of result with a 10x zoom. If you do buy another camcorder I dont think cinecap (if thats the software prog you are using for capture) supports hi definition...so check that out before laying out a lot of money for a hi def camcorder. There are plenty of 3ccd dv cams that would do a fantastic job for a lot less money and you can be sure cinecap will work with them. I noticed in your photos that you had another box :) It should be pretty straight forward to get an ariel image on the lens...thats the first thing to achieve...the photos of the ariel image I posted were taken with a cheapish digital stills camera.....no camcorder involved at all.... So try to achieve the ariel image first before introducing the camcorder into the chain... Once you have the image you can start to mess about with positioning your camcorder....if you discover that your 10x zoom does not allow you to focus in on the ariel image you may have to borrow a friend's cam that has at least 12x optical zoom. The instructions stipulate at least 12x zoom The shutter speed on my sony cam is set by adjusting the 'exposure' control..it opens up or closes down the shutter....I get an f stop readout on the lcd screen...as I mentioned before around f5 seems to work for me ...but you can adjust this in real time once you have the ariel image appearing on the lcd screen of your cam. If I dont have a 50% white balance reading I get flickering / jumping of the picture on the lcd screen...thing is my cam does not have manual white balance control only automatic....I have to mess about with my cam in different light situations until it automatically sets itself to 50%...then I am good to go. let me know how you get on My name is mike btw :) If you do have manual white balance control set it to 50%

John DS-8 posted 2007 Dec 27 16:33

Your replies sparked my interest because I am just starting to build a telecine unit using a Eumig 610 projector. For years I used a Professional teleicine unit that allowed for 2 slide projectors and a movie projector setup. It to used a condenser lens, and over the years we used a good half dozen different projectors from 8mm to 35mm. http://www.toddvideo.com/transfers/film_chain.html One thing that different in the home made unit is that the mirror is very close to the condenser lens, also there is no field lens which is required for aerial imaging to work correctly. I found that most projectors had to be 2 to 3 ft away from the condenser lens to focuses correctly. Some required a zoom lens or a different lens then what came with the projector. If I remember correctly we focused the projected image several inches short of the condenser lens using a frosted glass plate. Most of our problems was the projector focuses was off. Also the angle to the Condenser lens has to be perfect. Even 1 deg off can distort the image so bad the video camera will not pick it up correctly. The actual focused image should be about 2x3 inches on the condenser lens center. That why a 12 time zoom is required, also the focuse on the video is not as critical as the projector, since the camera is closer to the condenser lens then the average focuse setting on the lens can accomidate. I used a broadcast camera, originally a 3 tube JVC that worked very well. IF you run your projector at normal speed to record increase it to 20fps don’t try using a built in shutter on a camera to remove flicker. Anyway in a few weeks I should have one up and going and I may just find the same problems as you did, but I hoped this helped a little. :)

ericdudeus posted 2008 May 17 00:47

Hello This thread is has some great points and tips that the webpage doesn't cover very well. I am trying to build the setup outlined on the website, but the instructions are a little vague in some places and I was hoping for some help from someone who might have done it and gotten it to work. Where I am stuck is at the part where I connect the microswitch to the phono jack. Where do the wires to the switch come from, where do those wires go, and where is the phone jack mounted on the projector? I have the Eumig 610D like the website suggests. Any descriptions, instructions and/or pictures to help me understand would be fantastic and greatly appreciated!

ronypony posted 2008 May 17 18:50

Hi I routed the wire from the micro switch (mounted on the film tensioner) through to the other side of the projector. I then mounted a switch and phono socket on the back casing of the projector. I then used a phono lead to connect the modified mouse with the phono socket on the side of the projector. The switch on the side of the projector is not shown on the 'design' website...but it is one of the suggested improvements since it allows you to have the 'microswitch' in standby mode while you get the software (cinecap) set up to capture. When you are ready to go you can simply start the software to 'capture' flik the switch and away you go. Hope this helps..I will try to post some photos of my setup. heres a link to some examples of transfers I have done with this setup http://looksharpfilms.blip.tv/#498456

ericdudeus posted 2008 May 18 00:42

Thanks for the reply! I also was wondering about what wires are attached to the microswitch. The website shows an image of it with 2 wires soldered to it, but it doesn't really say where the two wires come from and where they end up. If you could show/explain what you did, it would be a big help. I must have missed the info about the 'standby switch' - I'll look into that.

ronypony posted 2008 May 18 09:06

Ok ...first ...you can use this system to capture film to a camcorder in real time. The results are very accepatable and if you decide this is adequate for you there is no need to worry about wires at all. Simply project your film onto the plano convex lens as an arial image and use your camcorder to capture / transfer your film. The design of the system incorporates the facility for single frame capture using a computer and appropriate software (cinecap). This is when you need to start worrying about wires. The software needs to receive an on / off signal every time a frame of film is in the gate..this is sent to the software by the modified mouse via usb. The wires that are soldered to the 'microswitch of the mouse' are connected to the phono socket fitted to the casing of the mouse itself. A phono lead is connected to this socket and the other end to a phono socket fitted to the casing of the projector. The wires soldered to the microswitch positioned to be triggered by the film tensioner are connected to the phono socket on the projector casing. As the film is trasported through the projector at 3fps it causes the tensioner to trigger the microswitch...this signal ia passed to the microswitch in the modified mouse which in turn tells 'cinecap' to capture a frame of film.The system is a little fiddly to get set up....but once it is set up it works pretty well. Can I suggest printing out the design instructions from super8.org and reading them over again carefully...I read them several times until I fully understood how it all fitted together.

oldfart13 posted 2008 May 18 09:34

Nice to see some build it yourself projects...takes me back to all those plans I used to send for from the back of old electronics mags. I used to use the Optex transfer unit (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cine-to-DVD-Transfer-box-Super-8-Standard-8mm-16mm-9-5m_W0QQitemZ160238852994QQihZ006QQcategoryZ35064QQcmdZViewItem) which produced good results. I use a friend's service now as he does semi-pro conversions as part of his business. I like the idea of the stills capture. I'll be following this thread.

ronypony posted 2008 May 18 11:34

Hi oldfart :D This is the DIY system I constructed for single frame capture at 3 or 6 frames per second... http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/junk/ I've had some pretty decent results...maybe not in the same league as a rank or flying spot film scanner...but a hell of a lot cheaper :lol: In my humble opinion nothing but nothing beats the atmosphere of film..especially super 8...but it is nice to be able to use modern computer editing software. If I ever film any footage that deserves it I will have it professionally transfered. regards Mike

2Bdecided posted 2008 May 19 08:30

ronypony : http://looksharpfilms.blip.tv/#498456 There are some nasty interlacing-like artefacts in that clip. As if it was interlacing at some point (which is bizarre, given the source) and wasn't deinterlaced before uploading for the web. Without them, it would look really cool. Cheers, David.

ronypony posted 2008 May 19 11:09

Ah ..yes you are right David....I can explain ...when I shot the film I used quite a bit of stop motion at 1fps. The clip I posted was transfered in real time...this is what has caused the 'artifacts'. I then captured at 3fps as opposed to 18fps (real time on my projector) and this has eliminated the artifacts. I will post the single frame transfer and you will see the difference .....actually you can see the difference in the clip. When the footage was shot at'normal' speed i.e. 24fps (played back at 18fps ...fastest projection speed on my machine) it looks pretty good as you indicate in your post. For a DIY telecine setup you really can get some decent results if you take your time. Single frame capture at 3 or 6 fps is the ideal but very fiddly to get everything working as it should. The weakest part of the system is the microswitch triggered by the film tensioner of the projector..it needs a lot of fine adjustment since different film stocks produce different tensions (due to thicknesses of film ). Still in the 'trial and error stage' with my setup ..but getting better all the time... :D

DanielRobert posted 2008 May 20 21:50

Deleted

ericdudeus posted 2008 Jun 06 14:25

OK - I finally have all the pieces in place and I am having a few problems. My biggest problem is getting the aerial image to "fill the frame" and still be in focus. I can get it looking pretty good with the image at about 50% of the size I would like, but if I try to get it larger, I can't keep it in focus. Does the projector focus control make a difference? I have tried to follow the DIY as closely as possible - I have the Eumig projector, the 114mm lens, the works - except my mini-DV camera only has 10x zoom. I have adjusted the white balance, and set the shutter speed on my camera to 1/60 (best looking). I was hoping somebody who has made this setup work could give me some rough measurements of how far the lens is from the projector, how far the camera is from the lens. Maybe I'm too close, or too far. Any other ideas? Thank you!

roger lauwens posted 2008 Sep 28 10:36

I am building the same system as explained on this forum, without a mirror. As condenser lens a plano convex lens is used . On the French forum they suggest, for the same sytem, to use a magnifying glass , which is convex on both sides.and has a + 3 dioptry. This glass is easier to find . Is the result the same and is it suitable

carb posted 2009 Jan 28 20:07

I have read the DIY Telecine questions and answers with great interest. However, I have not been able to find the detailed instructions on how to make the sytem. The posting for the DIY Telecine using the Eumig 610 projecter has been deleted. Can anyone help me with a copy of instructions for a DIY Telecine? Thank you.

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 03 08:55

i too would LOVE to have a copy of that page if anyone has one cached...

carb posted 2009 Feb 04 19:23

So far, no responses to my request. I will send you a copy if I get one.

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 19 12:42

this is so sad. i FINALLY get to the point where i'm ready to start transferring, and the site disappears! also, i notice that cinecap now is only available if you buy that funky printer thingy that i was trying to avoid buying in the first place! anyone got a copy they might wanna sell?

2Bdecided posted 2009 Feb 19 14:20

Haven't you heard of the internet archive?! http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/diytelecine/ Pick whichever version of the page you want (e.g. try the most recent one, Feb 2008). Some of the images are missing, unfortunately. Hope this helps. Cheers, David.

carb posted 2009 Feb 19 18:42

That is the site I have been looking for!! Thank you David! I obviously did not know about the archive.

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 20 08:32

i didn't know either! thanks so much david!! now, to find a copy of cinecap....

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 20 09:48

I want to start with the same project, but before I embark on anything, just one question. I have the Eumig Mark 600D. It does not look as if it has variable speed. This is from inside Will it be possible to modify the projector sothat one gets a slower speed?

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 20 11:51

i suggest you rethink this, because it looks like the software required for this (unless you use a mac) is not available any more....

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 20 13:02

Are you sure- I have seen references to cinecap on many sites, but I have not tried to download it. Any other alternatives then if this is not possible?

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 20 14:45

it is referenced a lot, but sadly, the fellow that makes the work printer camera thingy only sells the software now with his camera setup. the trial version of the software only allows 350 frames to be captured. i haven't found anything else. i imagine if you have the only thing that works, you sell it for as much as you can... supply and demand?

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 20 20:58

i seem to be having another hang up. the video cam i'm using doesn't output video when connected to firewire or usb. i have no problem buying an older camera, but thought i would ask here for advise on models and suc before going shopping. thanks so much, everyone. i really wanna avoid paying $1500 for a piece of gear that i don't really want!

ronypony posted 2009 Feb 21 02:35

OK I have been asked to comment on this old thread... avz10..you cannot use the model of Eumig that you have...it does not have the variable speed function of a Eumig 607D or 610D. Those models have a speed dial on the front casing with the numbers 18,12,9,6 and 3 ..these are the frame rates that the projector runs at.You will need to obtain one of those models if you want to do frame by frame capture using software. Having said that you could go ahead and construct your lens box and base board (assuming you have acquired a plano convex lens of suitable size and focal length) and carry out telecine transfer of your film in real time...18fps...which of course your particular model (600D) runs at. You will be pleasantly suprised at the quality of transfers you can achieve if you take your time getting things set up correctly. If and when you manage to get hold of a 607 0r 610D you can set about converting it for frame by frame. My opinion is this ...frame by frame transfers using a modified projector can yield fantastic results BUT you have to improve on the original instructions in a couple of ways. I would imagine that a lot of people would be quite happy with the results of real time transfer at 18fps...and for that you can use any projector you like...dosen't have to be any particular model. For those that are intent on constructing the frame by frame setup you will need to carry out the mods to the projector and a standard mouse. You will also have to use a capture software program. There is absolutley no doubt that CineCap is the best program for the job since it was written specifically for capturing cine film. It is no longer available to the general public for purchase....however as someone pointed out it is mentioned on a lot of websites ...try a google search..see what you can find :wink: There is a pretty good capture program that I am aware of that workd well with this DIY set up...it was not written specifically for cine capture ..but it is a fully featured stop motion capture software which I have tested in its trial version and achieved good results..here's the link http://www.capturix.com/default.asp?product=vcap The mac equivelent of CineCap ...a program called CaptureMate is also no longer available to the general public. I have constructed several units incorporating my own improvements to the original instructions . If any one would like me to put one together for them contact me by PM ..I would be happy to....for a very reasonable price:) mcleodjoe what camera do you have ?...there are cheapish converter boxes available for use with older cameras not equiped with firewire or USB connection... Of course the rule of thumb is the better the camcorder the better the captured video of your cine films will be..i.e. a 3CCD camera will give better results than a 1CCD camera Also I do know that the 'guy' that produces the movistuff workprinter units has a seriously good reputation for customer after sales support...gives good warranties on his products too as far as I am aware....you gets what you pays for I guess :D http://desktop.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/ADVC110/index.php I hope I have helped.

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 21 04:51

Thanks for your quick response. Very bad news about my Eumig. So I suppose there is no way to convert it to run at a slower speed? If I should get one of the Eumigs mentioned, it means that I will not be able to get hold of cinecap. This would mean that it will not be worth getting another projector? (I have seen download sites with crack codes- are these worthless?) My question therefor- without the software, it is useless trying to get another projector. Are there no similar programmes available? If I use my Eumig, like I have done before-displaying in a box and videotaping with my Panasonic GS 250, the results were relatively fine, but, I used a Virtualdub deflicker filter- this basically caused every second frame to be out of focus. Overall, the quality was quite good. If I buy this Capturix programme, about 40 USD, will it then change the speed to PAL speed? Will I then use the same equipment, lens, everything and a 20Watt builb, using this Capturex progam? Thanks for your comments.

ronypony posted 2009 Feb 21 06:54

The Eumig variable speed projectors work like this....the motor runs at a constant speed no matter what frame rate is selected 18,12,9 or whatever....they have a 'gear system' that controls the selected frame rate speed...not the motorspeed. Your model the 600D lacks the gear system since it only runs at 18fps and therefore does not require it. I have suggested an alternative capture software...Capturix...it is available to download as a trial version so that you can assess it for capturing cine films using the DIY setup you are asking about. I have stated that I have tested the Capturix demo version with the system with good results...I live in a country that uses the PAL system. Capturix allows you to change frame rate of any captured footage to any frame rate you wish. Download the demo version and explore it.If you have found 'crack codes' for software then its up to you whether you want to use pirated software or not...I am not going to advise you on that one :) The hardware i.e. projector,lens, light source, modified mouse etc etc is the same no matter what capture program you end up using. The variable speed Eumigs are constantly for sale on ebay for not that much money.Keep your Eumig 600D for normal screen projecting and get yourself a 607D or 610D to modify. Good luck

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 21 18:28

i want to apologize if my comments appeared to disrespect the workprinter folks in any way. i promise that wasn't my intention. i am sure they make a fantastic product and are of the highest caliber people. rather, i should point out that i am an extremely cheap Scot, and was expressing my frustration at not being able to save every nickle i could. please don't take my cheapness as an indictment against anyone but myself...

ronypony posted 2009 Feb 22 09:34

No apology necessary...I didn't think you were being disrespectful to the moviestuff folks in any way...I fully understand your desire to achieve transfering your films without having to purchase what some may regard as quite an expensive bit of kit....thats why this thread began really...folks trying to construct their own DIY transfer unit. Roger Evan's (moviestuff) machines do have an excellent reputation as does his after sales service to purchasing customers.This does not alter the fact that they cost a bit...but then I suppose you are are buying years of research and development on his part, a reliable source of spare parts and a machine that does exactly what it says on the tin. The DIY units we are discussing do have some limitations....e.g Because of the way in which the microswitch is triggered ...by the rear film tensioner (basically a bit of plastic moved by the tension of the film as it is taken up by the rear reel)....the accuracy of frame capture whilst good is not perfect...you do have the software capturing the occasional moving frame. At 3fps the film is stationary in the gate for approximately a third of a second...at 6fps this drops to one sixth of a second...you obviously experience fewer moving frame captures at the slower 3fps. Moviestuff workprinters, as far as I know, have a timing device/disk which ensures that every frame is captured whilst it is stationary in the gate...this feature is part of the reason they are desirable but costly. However I have to say that I for one have really enjoyed putting together my own DIY units and identifying ways in which the original instructions can be improved upon...and believe me there are several ways :D Incidentaly did you get my PM ? I would encourage anyone to put their own unit together...its fun and you certainly get a great sense of satisfaction when you achieve very very acceptable transfers of your films :D

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 22 14:23

Just a few questions/comments: 1. For me, cost is always a consideration-and also back-up support for the product. I live in South Africa and it might not be easy to send something back that has broken. Furthermore, for me, it is really ridiculous to spend so much money to transfer a few hours of 8mm and super 8!! 2. I am still unsure if I should try and find a Eumig 607/610 to modify if I'm not sure if I can get/buy the software (Cinecap) somewhere (pm me if anyone knows of a way to get it). 3. I have started to play with Capturix demo. I still have the DV cassettes when I recorded my films in a black box at 25 fps, before editing in Virtualdub) ( I notice, except for the flicker, that the original DV also had a bright frame, followed by a slightly out of focus frame). I am on the road this week, so I brought my Panasonic, a DV tape and a normal USB cable (my desktop has an IEEE port and cable). I tried to play the cassette and wanted to record the image with Capturix on 15 fps- but no luck, I just could not get an image to record. I then captured a bit on Virtualdub, but was unable to capture it on Capturix. Will keep on trying, but perhaps the IEEE connection is the problem. If anyone knows of a good tutorial on how to use Capturix, please advise me. 4. I see everywhere on the internet that people are scanning these old films. If these above mentioned 2 methods don't work for me, there should surely be a way to get a decent transfer from 8mm to digital, without paying an arm and a leg? (And then one is not sure if the children will ever watch these films!!!) Any comments will be helpful Thanks Albie

2Bdecided posted 2009 Feb 23 06:32

There's another approach that's different from normal "real time" transfers, and normal "single frame" transfers. You remove the shutter blades from the projector (warning: this makes it useless as a projector). Then you set your camcorder to a high shutter speed (e.g. 1/2000th). Then you record as you would in a normal "real time" transfer. The resulting video has every single frame of film "clean", and lots of junk (moving frames, duplicate frames) in between. Then you use a clever technique to keep only a single copy of each unique "clean" frame. It's described here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106837 Cheers, David.

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 23 09:47

2Bdecided : There's another approach that's different from normal "real time" transfers, and normal "single frame" transfers. You remove the shutter blades from the projector (warning: this makes it useless as a projector). Then you set your camcorder to a high shutter speed (e.g. 1/2000th). Then you record as you would in a normal "real time" transfer. The resulting video has every single frame of film "clean", and lots of junk (moving frames, duplicate frames) in between. Then you use a clever technique to keep only a single copy of each unique "clean" frame. It's described here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106837 Cheers, David. Thanks for this Just a few questions- I hace a 3 CCD camcorder- Panasonic NV GS 250- and I'm not sure if I can set this camera at a high shutter speed- all that I can see is REc Speed either SP or LP. I read through the thread, but was not sure how he actually removed all that junk Thanks Albie

ronypony posted 2009 Feb 23 12:23

Wow...I just read through that thread too...now that fellow Johnmayer has sussed out a very cool way of achieving true real time capture at 24 fps...amazing...but from what I could understand complicated for yer average joe to replicate...hopefully he may decide at some point to market his system/procedure...so we could all benefit :D For the time being I for one am restricted to using my DIY transfer unit...and its just fine for someone like me who wants to transfer my own super 8 films and get them into VirtualDub and evetually Sony Vegas for a bit of creative editing. If I ever shoot anything worthy of a professional telecine I will gladly pay the professionals to do it for me. The thread highlighted the slowness of the modified projector/condenser lens approach...true enough...but hey I aint in a hurry...the films I am transferring are 3 minute 50 foot reels...I simply crack open a beer and keep my eye on whats happening during the transfer. You can do as much post processing and editing of your captured raw footage as you like...and achieve very acceptable results....al this using a set up that didn't cost much more than $150.....thats cool in my book :D

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 23 18:08

thanks again everyone for all your input on this topic. i've been doing quite a bit of tinkering with my setup, allowing for the use of a bell and howell projector, and a few other details. i'm close to getting the results i'm looking for, but not quite there yet. here's some discoveries i've made... my bell and howell does not have a variable speed motor. i used a samll variable frequency drive to give me speed control. these things, for all those who might be interested, allow one to control the speed of ac motors while {mostly} maintaining the torque. they do it by changing the frequency the motor sees. i understand not everyone will have access to these - mine i got at an electrical surplus store for ten bucks. i also put a simple dimmer switch in line with my projector lamp. i had a diffusion glass in place, but was still having difficulties with exposure. i removed the diffuser, turned the lamp down, and dialed in a pretty good image, even though i still need to enlarge the projector window as detailed in the instructions. i have some lingering issues with white balance as my camera does not allow me tweak that. i think i'm going to try some white high output led's with a little dc power source. a simple potentiometer in line with some batteries should give me excellent control over my light source, while allaying any heat issues from an incandescent lamp. the only worry i have, is my grandfather took hours and hours of pictures of seagulls, water, beach, traffic, clouds and such, and precious little of fthe family. i fear i'm going to put hours into this project and end up with about five minutes of decent footage....

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 23 18:10

oh, i forgot to mention. i had a trial copy of cinecap. following someone's excellent advice here on the forum, i clicked the "purchase" button on the splash screen, and went and paid my money. i got my unlock license today! woo hoo!

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 24 05:06

Hi I think I will go the Eumig road and try to get one on our "bid or buy". From what website did you buy your cinecap and what is the price? Thanks Albie

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 24 12:35

i got it here <http://www.alternaware.com/>, but i don't think it is available any more...?

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 24 13:20

Will try to get it somewhere Thanks

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 27 21:47

i've been having a lot of fun with this project. i was incredibly frustrated at first, until i played around with projector/lens/camera physical locations enough to learn how incredibly touchy things are. it turns out, as i'm sure those who are reading this and have been through the process know, that adjustments to any of those components -on the order of millimeters-can make a massive difference. i only discovered the "sweet spot" by accident. for all those out there trying to do this, all i can say is - patience. there are three major variables - projector alignment, lens alignment and camera alignment. in each of these are minute alignments that make a huge difference to the outcome. i've been thinking that some footage of making these adjustments while videoing the results might save those that follow some grief. i would be willing to do that if there is any interest. thanks everyone, for all your patience and help. this project is unspeakably important to my family.

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 28 06:15

I'm glad and you can share your set-up please, a set of photos might be good. I'm sorted out with the software, but have had no response with the ad for a Eumig. I have this Sankyo dualux 1000 in working order. It has a slow to fast option, but I have no idea if it goes done to 4 fps. I found an instruction manual on the internet, but it also did not indicate how slow "slow" is. The lamp is broken, but that I can easily convert. Should I try, or wait for a Eumig? Thanks Albie

avz10 posted 2009 Feb 28 11:55

I have decided to start with this projector, if it doesn't work I will see it as experience. I have printed all the previous posts and working with them next to me, but am struggling with some aspects. I have removed the broken light and will add a 20 W bulb. This was easy! My problems now (sorry for my ignorance!): 1.Mouse modification This is the picture from the guidelines: I am not sure if both wires are used, if just one wire is used, and if just one is used, where do we leave the end of this wire? I suppose the connection will need to be made below the left button/contact. This is taken from below, to which one of the 3 should I solder the wire (the middle one is right underneath the button). Should I solder one or two wires here?? 2. Is this the type of connection they are talking about ("B" in the first picture)? I am totally unsure what happens with the one wire inside. 3.Connecting to the projector This is the picture from the post: I have no idea where to connect the two wires. Pictures at the front of the projector: With film: At the back of the projector: 4. Are these the type of wires they are talking about? Thanks for the advice. If you can help with photos or indicate on my photos, it will help a lot Albie

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Feb 28 14:16

on your nouse, the points you are interested in are the two top ones on your picture. if you look closely, you'll notice that the bottom solder point is isolated from any trace. it is not used at all. just ignore it completely. now, get yourself two pieces of fine wire - say, number 20AWG or there abouts. the size is not critical apart from the fact that you don't want anything too big or it will cause you grief trying to solder on the mouse board itself. the mouse i used was a throw away, so i removed the micro switch all together, but you don't have to do that if you don't want to, just solder one wire on one point, and the other on the other point.. the wires should be about 15" long or something like that. the other ends of those wires will reattach to your new microswitch. i used an old bell and howell projector, so mounting of my microswitch was completely different that the instructions, and your's will be as well. i looked for some kind of place where i could mount my microswitch, so that when the frame of the film was stationary and the gate was open, the microswitch was activated. that's your next challenge. it took me a while to figure out how to do it, but i lucked out on my projector and got it mounted and adjusted easily. i can't say if you will have the same luck or not. those coloured wires you have in your picture are not what you want to use, and the outputs on your projector are not related to this either. keep in mind, that what we are after here is a way to left click a mouse every time the film is stationary, and the gate is open. i suggest you take some time, with the projector case open, and the projector UNPLUGGED, and slowly turn the input shaft while carefully observing how all the gears and film claws and gates work in relation to each other. once you have a good idea of how they all work together, try to find a way to mount a microswitch in such a way it will be adjustable. micorswitches by their very nature are quite delicate things, and you will have to adjust it without doubt once you have it installed. i know that's a little vague. i'll try to help as much as i can. sadly, the difficulty will be i cannot tell from pictures where or how to mount your new switch, because it will depend on how your particular projector works.

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 01 05:27

Hi, I am clear how to change the mouse. Thanks! I am relatively clear with the position of the microswitch, although this might not work with my current projector- might need to wait for a Eumig. I didnt realise that the microswitch needs to be connected at the back. Photo on tutorial Photo of my Eumig that I cannot use Photo of the rear tensioning device of the Sankyo (not sure if I will be able to fit the microswitch here) Is it correct then, when I am at this stage, that I can connect the two wires direcly from the mouse to the microswitch? Thanks Albie

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 01 10:39

Hi Albie Have been away over the weekend ...just got home... OK...I have no experience with the sankyo projector you are trying to modify but I suspect it will not be suitable for the following reasons.. 1. It has a variable speed control...but I suspect that the control simply slows down the motor of the projector...this system will not allow the microswitch to be triggered by the film tensioner device shown in your photos.There may be another place to position the micro switch...but without knowing the projector I have no idea where that might be. The rear tensioner on a Eumig can be used to activate the micro switch because as I mentioned once before, the projector has a gear box which is independent of motor speed. The speed dial on a Eumig allows the projector to run at the following speeds 18,12,9,6 and 3fps...when running at 3fps each frame of cine film is stationary in the projector gate for one third of a second...plenty of time to be captured by the camcorder when told to do so by the micro switch. I hope I am being clear enough in my explaination. 2. The micro switch is just that...a switch...it needs a moving part of the projector to turn it on and off...the switch is connected to a phono socket (exactly like the ones you have shown in your photos ...they can be purchased in any electronic components store...or salvage a couple off an old broken hi fi seperate e.g. amp or cassette et etc). 3. Use 12v auto wire for all the wiring...its just the right weight..not too light weight for soldering...It looks to me that you might have to continue with your search for a Eumig 607D or 610D...OR look out for a Bolex 18-3 Duo or Bolex 18-3 TC multispeed..these are essentialy Eumig 610D with a new suit of clothes (Bolex took over Eumig in the 70's and gave the Eumig range a makeover). In my experience the slower speed of 3fps is the best for accurate captures...you can use 6fps but you get more captures of 'moving' frames...it takes longer with 3fps but the results are better. 4. The micro switch is wired as shown in your photo ...you then pass it through an obvious gap in the chassis of the projector to the other side...its then soldered to a female phono socket which you mount on the back plastic cover of the projector...like this I have also wired in a little toggle switch so that I can have the system in standby mode while I set up the software...when I am ready I simply start the projector running and flick my standby switch to on position to begin capture. You then take a standard phono lead and connect the projector to the mouse as shown in this photo...the mouse connects to the computer via usb. Here is a pic or two of the last unit I built using a Bolex 18-3 Duo projector

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 01 11:02

mcleodjoe : i used an old bell and howell projector, so mounting of my microswitch was completely different that the instructions, and your's will be as well. i looked for some kind of place where i could mount my microswitch, so that when the frame of the film was stationary and the gate was open, the microswitch was activated. that's your next challenge. it took me a while to figure out how to do it, but i lucked out on my projector and got it mounted and adjusted easily. i can't say if you will have the same luck or not. I would be very interested to know the model of the Bell & Howell projector you use and see some pics of where you mounted your micro switch...any chance ? thanks

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 01 13:32

Well, thanks for all that My struggling with the other projector was good, as it clarified a lot for me. I know how to modify the mouse, and I have decided to wait until I find a Eumig. Then I will start to ask questions again! Albie

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 01 17:04

Gonna start billing you for all this advice :D

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Mar 01 18:10

ronypony : mcleodjoe : i used an old bell and howell projector, so mounting of my microswitch was completely different that the instructions, and your's will be as well. i looked for some kind of place where i could mount my microswitch, so that when the frame of the film was stationary and the gate was open, the microswitch was activated. that's your next challenge. it took me a while to figure out how to do it, but i lucked out on my projector and got it mounted and adjusted easily. i can't say if you will have the same luck or not. I would be very interested to know the model of the Bell & Howell projector you use and see some pics of where you mounted your micro switch...any chance ? thanks it would be my pleasure. i'll take some pics tomorrow and post em!

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 02 12:09

cheers :)

Hergow posted 2009 Mar 04 09:59

I started in 8mm double 8 in 1952, and did not change to super 8 when it arrived, so my experience is limited to standard 8. I am at present transfering these films to DVD using the method suggested by the Onsuper8.org. and CineCap software. I have an early Eumig Imperial projector and decided it would be possible to use this in a telecine setup. I knew it would not be possible to use the projector for normal film projection after I had modified it for telecine, so I managed to get another Eumig Imperial projector from Ebay for £5. The Eumig Imperial projector has speed control by a variable resistance system and it could easily be set to 3 or 4 frames per second, so speed was no problem. I removed the rewind mechanism from the projector and constructed a cam, revolving once per frame, to trigger a micro switch for frame capture. The cam can be adjusted to trigger when the film is stationery in the gate. Wires from the switch go to a phono socket on the rear of the projector. I cannot rewind film on the projector now, so I rewind on my film editor. I dismantled the projector condenser lens system and secured a diffuser disc to the condenser lens housing using Araldite. I mounted a socket for a 20 watt halogen bulb on the base of a old bulb, which just plugs in as normal. I filed the gate aperture to utilise the whole of the frame area for copying. The mouse modification is according to the OnSuper8.org instructions. I obtained a 90 mm dia. condenser lens (two actually!) from Ebay for less than a fiver and it works fine. Camera is the cheapest Sony Handycam, mini dv of course, and editing is by Sony Vagas Home Studio 8 Platinum. That's the outline of my system and it works well for me. The cost was minimal, about £30, excluding projector and camera which I already had.If there is anyone interested in this I would be willing to provide more detailed information with photos and my method of setting up the system. I am appending a frame shot to give some idea of the results I am getting.

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Mar 05 18:08

As promised, a few pictures. I apologize for taking so long, and for not having some better shots of my cam micro switch setup, but I promise I will get those posted here! In any event, what you see here is my little setup. It's not pretty, but works like a hot damn. What you cannot see here is my variable frequency drive. As a bonus though, I've spent some time playing with this setup and my Arduino, and I've included some pics of the super simple setup I kluged together. For those that wanna know, an Arduino http://www.arduino.cc/ is a simple micro controller all nicely pasted on to a little board with a USB port to connect to your computer, some digital pins which you can define as input or output, some reference pins and a few other goodies. They can also e supplemented with "shields", which are boards that plug into the top of these and provide a host of other things like Bluetooth transceivers and stuff. The board is cheap, EVERYTHING is open source, and there are lots of resources to help with the (sort of) C++ language to make the damn thing do stuff. I wrote up a little program that counts the cam micro switch clicks, and outputs a mouse click. I can set my projector to slower gear rates, and because my cam switch is mounted on the motor shaft, capture every three motor rotations. I know this seems goofy, but I find it easier to make 'on the fly' adjustments to focus and exposure as I capture my films. Okay, I admit, I just like goofing around with stuff...

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Mar 05 18:33

JamesRueben posted 2009 Mar 07 09:58

I managed to buy a copy of Cinecap on the 23rd December last year and have only just found it is no longer available. This is a great shame because it does everything you need. Before I bought I searched for the author because I wanted to check his company still existed (at the time the web page was last updated in 2005) and I wasn’t sending money into nowhere. His name is Jeff Dodson and if you go to http://www.moviestuff.tv/testimonials.html you will find an email address for him. He told me he is working with Roger Evans of Moviestuff on new products. If you email Jeff it may be he will let you download and then purchase a licence. If he does let you download and you buy a licence be patient when waiting for the licence key. When I ordered it took two hours for the company that handles the orders to send out the licence key while I panicked that I had lost my money. The website warns that it can take 24 hours, so just relax and it will turn up. Regarding the lost information at http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/diytelecine/index.html . I emailed them in January and they put it back on for me at http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/junk/. They said it would only be for a few days, but it is still there today. Such a shame they took the original pages down, from this thread it is obvious that a great many people have used the design. I also have problems with the adjustment of the microswitch and end up with loads of missed frames or it stops capturing. I am looking at using a reed switch triggered by a magnet on the main drive shaft but I am having trouble finding a place to locate it. One other recommendation I have as well as the bypass switch is to put a push button in parallel with the microswitch so you can trigger a few mouse clicks to make sure the mouse circuit is working. I found my mouse would hang and it was a pain to get everything lined up only to find nothing was capturing. I suspect it was hanging due to the length of cable between the microswitch and mouse, I am now going to make this as short as possible.

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 07 14:32

Hmmm...I explored the possibility of using a reed switch rather than a mechanical micro switch....like you I found it difficult to identify where to mount it ...gave up in the end and went back to the original mechanical switch but with a determination to improve on its reliability... The thing is that because it depends on the tension of the actual film as it moves through the film channel,its always going to be a relatively 'unreliable' method of triggering the switch. In addition to this the onsuper8 instructions suggested the Eumig 610D because of the fact that the 610D worked on this tensioning system...no account was taken of how accurate the timing was in relation triggering of switch and position of film frame in the gate. I have spent a lot of time working out how to get this method of triggering the switch to be as accurate and reliable as possible..and I think I have now achieved this with a very simple modification and the use of a multimeter. At 3fps the number of frames captured when in motion as opposed to being stationary in the gate is minimal...few enough that you can edit them out in your software editor if you wish. There is another metal part of the gear mechanism that moves at the different fps speeds which could be used to trigger the switch...but again it has proved difficult to mount a mechanical switch so it could be triggered by this part of the projector mechanism. I would really like to work out how to fit some kind of timing disc/cam or whatever to ensure that the micro switch was triggered at the precise moment when each and every frame is stationary in the gate...aint thought of how to do it yet ...but I am working on it...if anyone has any suggestions as to how we might achieve this I am all ears :D

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Mar 07 18:12

i mentioned using an arduino micro in my previous post. i can give more details if anyone is interested. i think it solves the timing issue nicely. oh, by the way, i have no interest in those things apart from having bought one a year or so ago and am tinkerer by nature. so, you know, there certainly are other micro's out there that will work just dandy, i'm sure....

JamesRueben posted 2009 Mar 08 03:18

ronypony : Hmmm...I explored the possibility of using a reed switch rather than a mechanical micro switch....like you I found it difficult to identify where to mount it ... ...I have spent a lot of time working out how to get this method of triggering the switch to be as accurate and reliable as possible..and I think I have now achieved this with a very simple modification and the use of a multimeter. At 3fps the number of frames captured when in motion as opposed to being stationary in the gate is minimal...few enough that you can edit them out in your software editor if you wish. There is another metal part of the gear mechanism that moves at the different fps speeds which could be used to trigger the switch...but again it has proved difficult to mount a mechanical switch so it could be triggered by this part of the projector mechanism. Since writing my posting I have also found it difficult to find anywhere to mount a reed switch, there is just so little space around the drive shaft. I have also looked at the mechanism that moves up and down to pull the next frame in. But again there is no obvious place to mount a reed switch or microswitch. I would prefer not to use 3 fps if I can help it I have about 25 hours to capture, much of it still on 50’ reels, so that’s about a week of just capturing without any time to swap the films over. :( Hergow : I removed the rewind mechanism from the projector and constructed a cam, revolving once per frame, to trigger a micro switch for frame capture. The cam can be adjusted to trigger when the film is stationery in the gate. Wires from the switch go to a phono socket on the rear of the projector. I cannot rewind film on the projector now, so I rewind on my film editor. I missed this when I first read this thread. Presumably you removed some of the gears at the top left (when viewed from the motor side) which then provided enough space to mount a cam and switch. I would be very interested in a photo of this. I am not sure how many of the gears are part of the rewind mechanism and which need to be there for the forward drive. ronypony : I would really like to work out how to fit some kind of timing disc/cam or whatever to ensure that the micro switch was triggered at the precise moment when each and every frame is stationary in the gate...aint thought of how to do it yet ...but I am working on it...if anyone has any suggestions as to how we might achieve this I am all ears :D I have since found http://www.jeffree.co.uk/pages/revmaster.htm which gives a design of a simple tachometer. I am going to try adapting this to get the sync pulse. If you look at his circuit I am going to make the sensor part shown in the top left corner of the diagram using the IR reflective sensor and two resistors. Ignoring the rest of the circuit I will connect this small part to the mouse (will now need three wires to the mouse using a stereo jack and socket). I hope to be able to place the reflective sensor close to the shutter blades and by painting one of them white I should get a pulse once per frame. This is described in the text just below photo 2 on the web page. I am hoping I won’t get reflection from the non painted blades or any false triggering by light from the halogen bulb in the gaps between shutter blades. I will use standard stripboard rather than create a printed circuit and again mounting the detector will be the tricky thing. I will let you know how I get on. Thanks for the suggestion mcleodjoe, I will try the optical sensor first.

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 08 06:31

James...your potential solution to the triggering problem using a reflective sensor sounds very promising indeed. I hope you are successful with it...please let us know if you get it to work... You mention a potential difficulty regarding light spilling from the halogen bulb...I now fit one of these G4 LED light sources....less heat..more directed light...might be a better choice for the system you are investigating.... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/G4-LED-12V-AC-DC-6-Very-Bright-LEDs-DAY-WHI ... 634.c0.m14 mcleodjoe...I like the sound of your solution too but you use a different model of projector to those of us that have the eumig 610D. How does the arduino micro work. ? Thanks for posting the pictures of your setup btw. I think James might really be on to something with a reflective sensor activated by one of the shutter blades.

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Mar 08 18:58

the arduino is an open source hardware/software microprocessor mounted on a board with inputs, outputs, some volatges, and a usb connector. you plug it into a usb port on your pc, and run a little application that allows you to write progarms to the arduino. in the software, you define what the arduino should look for as inputs; switches, proximity sensors, temperatures, photo optic inputs, you name it. you then tell it to do stuff with what it see's coming in, then do stuff with the outputs you also define. my cam switch is mounted directly to the motor shaft, and since i wanted mouse clicks every three shaft rotations, i wrote a little program that: 1/ counts the shaft rotations 2/ on every third rotation, click the mouse apart from a little massaging to weed out switch bounce, (which, by the way, almost always happens with micro switches. it happens when the contacts open which can make whatever it is that is looking at that switch, be it a microprocessor or a software "capture" button, see multiple contact switch state changes. remember, those little things are mechanical, and they work with a tiny little spring inside. as the contacts open, the little contact thingy vibrates as it pulls away. you might wanna look at that if you are finding multiple captures of one image, or your capturemate software is hanging up. it could be due to massive amounts of mouse clicks!), some status messages to let me know it's working, and some led's to give me an idea of the general health of the thing, that's about it! the entire program is at most 20 lines long. dead simple. so, i guess what i'm getting at here, is that by using a micro, you can expand you options in terms of what your cam switch is looking at, and what you want it to tell the capturemate software. for me that meant forgetting about trying to get into the frame advance mechanism, the speed mechanisim, or anything else. i simply count the motor rotations and the micro joyfully clicks my mouse for me. please forgive me if i have talked down to anyone with experience in these sorts of things. i find myself that often when i participate in forums, there are always those that give explanations that take me ages to decipher so i can understand what the hell they are talking about. have a look at your projectors, and see if there is a place where you can mount your micro with an eye towards being able to adjust it while the projector is running. then, figure out what the relationship is between the micro and where you want the mouse clicks to be. without doubt, the arduino can fill in the middle part for you.

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 09 07:46

Now that is clever.... :D Correct me if I am wrong here ...your Bell and Howell projector has variable speed control which slows down the actual motor..so to achieve lower frame rates per second you simply slow down the motor..am I right ? If this is the case then I dont think your system will work with the Eumig 607/610D projectors a lot of folk have used to construct their telecine machines. These projectors have a 'gear box' arrangement...the motor runs at a constant speed no matter what fame rate speed is selected 18, 12, 9, 6 or 3. I do have another Chinon projector that has variable speed by slowing down the motor...it might be worth taking a look at in relation to your ingenious solution OR maybe I should be looking to acquire the same projector as yourself and you could help me configure an arduino board :D

Kintara posted 2009 Mar 09 09:41

Hi everyone. I have been dabbling with home telecine and I have a set up that captures images pretty well with Cinecap. My problem is one of "jerkyness". Cinecap seems to set the captured film to play at a default rate of 10fps. I know that it can convert it to 18 fps or 25 fps, but how good a job does it do? Seems to end up with jerky footage. I have used virtualdub to change the source to a frame rate of 18 & 25 ready for Vegas to make it into a finished film. But I keep confusing myself over frame rate conversions etc. I just want to get from a Cinecap captured film to a smooth playing PAL DVD. Anyone advise on which settings on Virtualdub or Cinecap give the best settings to do this? Thanks y'all

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 09 13:33

I use the same editor as you Kintara...Sony Vegas. Never experienced 'jerkiness' due to CineCap at all :? Are you doing frame by frame captures with CineCap or real time captures..say 18 or 24 fps ? No matter what kind of capture session I do CineCap does its job really well...I then use the 'speed change' function to process the captured footage to whatever the original shooting frame rate was...usually 18fps with me...although I have captured carts where I hadchanged frame rate throughout the shoot..9, 24 and 36 fps...CineCap dealt easily with it.Once I have my captured footage I edit in Vegas Pro and render an mpeg using the default PAL setting and burn to DVD without any problems at all. I suspect the jerkiness is a result of dodgy projector registration...do you find that when you project normally on a screen or wall you experience the jerkiness ?

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Mar 09 18:32

ronypony : Now that is clever.... :D Correct me if I am wrong here ...your Bell and Howell projector has variable speed control which slows down the actual motor..so to achieve lower frame rates per second you simply slow down the motor..am I right ? If this is the case then I dont think your system will work with the Eumig 607/610D projectors a lot of folk have used to construct their telecine machines. These projectors have a 'gear box' arrangement...the motor runs at a constant speed no matter what fame rate speed is selected 18, 12, 9, 6 or 3. I do have another Chinon projector that has variable speed by slowing down the motor...it might be worth taking a look at in relation to your ingenious solution OR maybe I should be looking to acquire the same projector as yourself and you could help me configure an arduino board :D my bell and howell is not variable speed, actually. i use a variable frequency drive to change the motor speed. they can be expensive, but i happened to have one from something else i was fiddling with at some point in the past. that thing allows me to change the speed of the ac motor without sacrificing torque, which is the very reason you can't use a simple dimmer switch. all that does is lower the effective power of the motor until it simply will not overcome it's own resistance to movement. as for your chinon unit, if you can work out a relationship between your motor shaft and the frame you wanna catch, then a micro such as the arduino can help bridge the gap. it's wort nothing too, that the arduino could be set up to read an optocouple or proximity switch. an opto coupler is essentially an electronic eye that looks for some conditions. a prox looks for a magnetic field, or the presence or absence of an object. the problem with these darn projectors, is there is precious few options on where switches are mounted, and how their mounting relates to an open gate. lets suppose that instead of using a microswitch, we mounted a small reflective disk with a black segment on it to the motor shaft. we could mount an electronic eye that would look at this disk, and the micro would monitor what the eye is doing. then you discover that every seventh time the eye sees that black segment, the gate is open and the film is stationary. the micro's job would be to count the number of times it see's the black mark, and to click a mouse button for a certain length of time, and keep on doing this until the power goes off or you turn it off, whichever comes first. this sort of thing is done all the time. i once work for a newspaper as an industial electrician. we had to add another tower to our old metroliner press. we needed to know, with an accuracy of a couple of million points in 360 degrees, where the 75 HP AC motor was in relation to the offset rollers, and make adjustments to that relationship, with such a degree of accuracy as to make sure that the fragile newsprint web didn't snap from too much tension, or bunch up from too little. that being said, that project didn't use the cheapest encoder we could find. that encoder, which is an electrical mechanical device that spits out those couple of million bits of info based on the rotation of the shaft, was worth several thousand dollars. but, as an example, i mention it because there are other ways to do pretty much the same thing. i suggest, to get your imagination going, dropping by a robotics hobby website and have a look at what they are doing with position sensors. i think you'll be amazed to discover they are dealing with the same things we are, and they have come up with some clever solutions. all that being said, i hafta point out that i am by no means an expert. i had a teeny bit of experience and a lot of time to build my little telecine. but, damn tootin, i would be MORE than happy to help you develop your projector! :D

Kintara posted 2009 Mar 11 14:58

Hi All It seems that more and more people are creating telecine machines for their own use. I used a Eumig 607D as my mechanical set up. I replaced the 100 watt lamp with a Luxeon LED and led controller. I also ripped the guts out of the mechanics of the projector, ditching the motor and transformer. I then bought a small geared motor from Maplins, a 12 volt laptop power supply from Ebay, and mounted them on a plate in the space now vacated. I then removed the gate shutter (the small piece of metal that has two rectangle holes in it, so that the sprocket holes are not projected.) giving a projection of the full film frame. I then cut off two of the shutter blades with a Dremmel, and cut the 3rd so it left a tang, but not enough to cover the gate as it went past. Then I made a sensor from parts of an old PC mouse, and mounted so that as the blade tang went past, it broke the beam of the sensor, sending a signel to a circuit I made on vero board. I run the projector on the "9fps" gearing, so that on one revolution the film is advanced one frame, and on the 2nd revolution it produces a "capture" pulse, which is sent to a modified PC mouse to act as a right click on the "Capture" button in Cinecap. With the motor I have this works out at about 1fps capture. I used two revs / frame as the image capture webcam would need a little time to "settle" on each frame it was presented with. For the Image capture I have done away with the original lens and mounted a 50mm camera lens on a tube. On the other side of the tube I have a 1.3 m pixel webcam looking towards the projector gate. The webcam has been stripped from its housing, had its lens removed (just unscrew it all the way and ditch it) and mounted in a box. After a lot of fiddling I eventually got a good focused image. and was able to capture a pretty good AVI file with it. The only problem I now have is that Cinecap, although it will change the frame rate, does not seem smooth out the jitter that comes in when there is panning in the captured film (i.e. when the person who shot the original cine film panned left to right.). I can give a lot more details if needed, but as this is a different method of capture to your ariel image, I dont expect you to change horses mid stream. I would hovever love to know hot to get a smooth looking 25 fps AVI from my captured 18 fps Cinecap AVI film. I don't have much time at the moment to stay on this forum (the wife will be back soon and will be wondering why Im wasting my time when there are companys who will do it - for a fee), but I will be looking in again on=ver the next few days and weeks. Keep up the good work Kintara

Hergow posted 2009 Mar 12 10:36

I wonder why there is a jitter problem with CineCap. I copy my standard 8 films, shot at 16fps, and stretch them to 25 fps (PAL) in Vegas Home Studio. Also reverse the image so do not have to use a mirror in the telecine setup. Have no jitter problems at all. Good results every time. I certainly recommend Vegas and would not use anything else. Hergow.

mcleodjoe posted 2009 Mar 13 19:37

Hey Kintara, I like the simplicity of your rig. Can you take some pics for us all to have a look? I firmly believe in the K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid) principal, and it sounds like you have simplified the system nicely.

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 14 15:24

Kintara...I have been thinking about your jitter problems...it struck me that by removing the 'gate plate' of the 607D the film would not have the required pressure ,provided by this plate, to allow the claw to transport the film...I say this because I have several Eumig D series projectors and one has a fault (have not sussed what the cause is yet),,,but I do know its related to the pressure provided by the pressure plate integral to the lens housing pushing against the film as it runs past the gate plate you have removed...the fault causes the jittering you describe. I too would like to see pics of your unit :D mcleodjoe...have been studying arduino boards in great detail...when I have a little more time I fully intend to explore the possibility of developing a system that uses an arduino in my own setups... :D

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 15 04:54

Well, I've got everything I need. I got a Eumig 610, a mouse, a lens, the microswitch, etc. Will start to build in the next couple of weeks. My video camera is a 3CCD Panasonic NV GS250 Will keep you updated

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 15 09:04

Excellent...when you do start to build your unit I can give you some valuable hints/tips on how to ensure absolute and stable triggering of the micro switch. If you haven't got a multimeter with an audible continuity buzzer function I would strongly recommend you get one....it will make life so much easier when setting up the the micro switch...here is a pic of the mod I came up with to ensure stable triggering....its adjustable too...believe me it will save a lot of grief and gnashing of teeth :)

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 16 14:18

Thanks a lot for your advice and willingness to help. I think the initial phase will be slow, as I will only be home on weekends for the next few weeks. But I will try to start and definitely contact you. I attach your photo- is the multimeter that small device next (to the left) of my question mark? Where is the power coming from? I will let you know when I start (hopefully start to fiddle this weekend) Albie

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 16 17:34

No mate...this is a multimeter Get yourself one of these but make sure it has a buzzer function for testing continuity. The micro switch will mis-trigger if it moves at all...even by a tiny amount The little mod in the photo is simply a bit of plastic with a small nut and bolt through the end of it which is used to prevent the micro switch from moving to the right...and it can be adjusted if the switch does happen to move. The multimeter is used to test and make sure that the micro switch is working properly...to get the switch operating you have to have film running through the projector...the projector is noisy and its diffucult to hear if the micro switch is operating....but you can use the multimeter buzzer function to 'hear' the switch working :D If you look at the photo of the micro switch you can see that two of the pins are soldered to the wire that runs to the phono socket mounted on the plastic cover on the other side of the projector. When you have wired up the switch,modified the mouse and are ready to test that the micro switch is indeed operating correctly and reliably do this. Set the multimeter to 'buzzer'...touch both the positive (red) and negative (black) probes together...the buzzer should BUZZ :) Now place one of the probes on either of the wired pins of the micro switch and the other probe on the other pin. Set the projector running at 3fps with film loaded...this should cause the micro switch to operate if you have mounted it correctly...if it is operating correctly you will hear nice strong itermittant buzzes from the multimeter as the switch is opened and closed. If you do not hear any sound coming from the multimeter carefully adjust the micro switch by moving it either to the left or right using a flat bleded screwdriver or the like. Only tiny movements either direction should be used until you get those nice clear audible signals from the multimeter...notice in my photo of the micro switch it is only secured by the top hole...there is no fixing bolt through the lower hole (yet). Once you have the the micro switch operating perfectly you may wish to very carefully drill a hole through this lower mounting hole to secure the lower half of the switch...

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 17 13:46

':)' Sorry for my total ignorance! I like to fiddle with things, but these switches were all new to me!! Your explanation makes perfect sense. Will let you know when I start

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 21 13:34

Problem that I had was solved

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 22 16:06

What problem was that ? :D

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 23 06:31

Sorry about that post- I deleted it, because I thought I have fixed the problem, but I have just started converting the mouse and need help (will only be at home over the weekend). I have found a Eumig 610 and it is working very well. Just as background: If I connect my camcorder via firewire to my PC, open Cinecap, then I can record pressing the left click button on the mouse (that mouse still has that old round connection). (Cinecap shows the number of frames that I have captured and I can play it back) So, I started soldering the cable to the two points under the left "click" button. I think I overheated it, as the red button did not click when I pressed it. It also did not work when I plugged the USB port in and touched the other two points of the cable. (That was my first post, which I deleted) (Soldered the two points on the right) Red "button"that stopped working/clicking: I then removed the cable and with better soldering technique by now, soldered it below the right click button. That red button was still clicking. I plugged the USB of the converted mouse in to the PC, and when I connected the two free points of the wire, it was working- showing a typical right click box on the screen. The problem is this: I then connected the two loose ends of the wire to the microswitch, connected my camera with the Firewire to the PC, opened cinecap, clicked begin with my other mouse, then pressed record with my other mouse and then pressed the microswitch repeatedly. But it did not record. Hope this explanation is clear and not too confusing So, my questions: Should I buy a new mouse and connect the wires below the left click button? What else might I have done wrong that it does not record? Should I remove the other mouse when doing this? Regards and thanks for more advice Albie

ronypony posted 2009 Mar 24 04:56

Hi Albie Yup its fiddly doing the mouse :roll: Its got to be the left mouse button to work with Cinecap...so if you have goosed the switch on your mouse it looks like your going to have to buy a new one....I dont know if you have a Maplins or Radio shack/Tandy where you are but they sell USB mice very cheaply. Make sure you solder the correct two pins. Here is a pic of the underside of mine showing the two pins that have to be soldered... Take your time mate ...your getting there :D No you do not need to remove other mice that you have connected to your computer ..they/it will not interfere with Cinecap. In fact its useful to have another mouse/pointing device so you can use it to click on anything you might have to while leaving the 'CineCap' mouse positioned over the capture button.

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 24 09:35

Thanks for the advice! They are not too expensive here. Will tackle it over the weekend again. Regards Albie

boobootrasher posted 2009 Mar 31 14:04

Hi, Im new here. I too have built the set up as described by super8.org. I purchased Cinecap back along and have been making a lot of tests. This is the latest one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPewh7TY4io I also at the same time had the most precious of my films transferred by Video station http://www.videostation.co.uk/ at a rate of 25 frames per second. The idea is to restore individual frames and then later on incorporate them back into my footage. I will then use Cinecap to fix the frame rate to 18 frames per second as originally shot in camera. The results that I have had with Cinecap so far are quite disappointing. The footage when converted is very jerky and not at all interlaced. ( By the way, I have clicked the box.) Back to the 601D set up. I am making a lot of test here also , I too am experiencing problems with the timing of the micro switch. I understand now that the tensioning of different films play a part in this. I also have bought lots of different sizes of condenser lenses and have yet found any to work properly. ( Tests were with a 10 time zoom lens camera, maybe that was the problem, but I don’t think so.) By the way Video station did an excellent job on the films that I had sent them. the footage was all broken with bad splice prepares but if you want the last word in telecine, you know shot for shot, the price was prohibitive. Well. That’s why im so interested in do it yourself, you have the full control and know just how the film should look. Input anyone?

avz10 posted 2009 Mar 31 16:14

I'm slowly progressing, but I'm working in Botswana this week. I converted the mouse the previous weekend (bought a new one) and fixed the microswitch. It is working well when I project against the wall. I have only tried this on one film, so I suppose there might be some problems when I use different films (although theoretically, the tension should be the same??) This weekend I will change the light and try to set the system up. I will need to read up on the settings of Cinecap to capture the frames. Is there a specific setting for 8mm and super 8? (I confess that I need to look at the tutorial again) (Any advice?). My second question, although I'm not there yet, is if one should capture in complete darkness, once the lens is set up and one has adequate focus, or is some light OK? Regards Albie

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 01 11:03

Albie...there is no specific setting in CineCap for super or Standard 8mm. CineCap is simply telling your camcorder to capture individual frames of film off the condenser lens and storing the captured frames as an avi file on the computer hard drive...it does not need to know if it is capturing super 8 or any other 8mm gauge of film . Its very easy to use...get your telecine system set up...ensure the best focus of the camcorder on the lens you can achieve...take your time with this stage...its crucial to the final capture. Once you have your captured footage use the speed change function of CineCap to change the frame rate (speed) of your captured footage to that which it was originally shot at. Low light is best when you are transferring your cine films since you may experience some reflection on the condenser lens...it does not have to be done in total darkness though. Boobootrasher... Can't understand why you are experiencing jerkyness with CineCap...as I said to Albie its simply software telling the camcorder to capture individual frames...there is no processing of film at this stage by CineCap. Check the registration of your projector...is the film being transported steadily in the projector...when you project the film normally on the wall or screen ..is it steady then ? I do not think your jerky captures are due to CineCap. I bought a 114mm (4 and a half inches) plano condenser lens off ebay for very little money...it needs to have a decent focal length to achieve half decent results...the original instructions stipulate a camcorder with at least 12x optical zoom....your focusing problems could lie there...borrow a 12x or more camcorder and see if there is an improvement... Read back through this thread ...I have detailed how you can mod the microswitch to be much more reliable...however since there is no timing device as such to ensure the switch triggers at exactly the point when a frame of film is stationary in the projectors gate ...you are always going to have moving frames captured which cause the abberations I observed in your youtube sample. I have found that 3fps is the best frame rate/speed to capture at...its slower but more reliable....good luck

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 03 16:20

Thanks Ronypony! Advice on the next step please! The 20 Watt lamp is in and working, now I need advice on the 50 mm opal diffuser glass. What is that exactly, where does one usually get something like that and are there any alternatives? I might find one of those little editing machines, which one uses to attach films- would that glass be sufficient? Thanks

JamesRueben posted 2009 Apr 04 04:13

Sorry to have taken so long to come back, been very busy these last few weekends. ronypony : James...your potential solution to the triggering problem using a reflective sensor sounds very promising indeed. I hope you are successful with it...please let us know if you get it to work... I have now built and installed the reflective sensor and it works a treat. As far as I can tell I am not dropping frames at all. I painted one of the three shutter blades white and the other two matt black for good measure. I put the sensor on an L shaped piece of strip board so it can just fit in and used a tie wrap to hold it to a mounting post nearby. The screw on the board is to protect the detector. If it gets too close to the shutter blades, the screw head will hit first.

JamesRueben posted 2009 Apr 04 04:21

Can't find how to get multiple images on one posting, so I'm doing this in several. I only put the detector on the L shaped board, I put the resistors and switches on another piece of strip board in a small box connected to the mouse. This was to allow me to make resistor changes or add a capacitor if need without taking the projector apart again. In the end I used the same values as on the tachometer webpage. img_5219%20mouse.jpg

JamesRueben posted 2009 Apr 04 04:24

I don't seem to be able to load the rest of the images, so this is the rest of my posting without them. :( As I am bringing the 5 V from the USB into the projector I used a 4-pin min DIN connector as used by a mouse or keyboard. The plug goes on the detector board from the projector and the socket is on the mouse end. This is to prevent shorting the 5 V and damaging the USB driver in the PC. I am sure there are better ways to mount, but mechanics is not my strong point. This photo shows the detector mounted on the post and then moved to be close to the white shutter blade. img_5220%20detector1.jpg While I adjusted the position of the strip board, it snapped by the hole I drilled for the tie wrap. I glued it back together and soldered some 2.5 mm copper wire from a mains cable along the tracks by the hole to give it some strength. This made the board too high to fit back on the right of the post, so I reinstalled it on the left and it is now at about a 30 degree angle to the blade. You can actually get it in here without having to dismantle the gears. The photo below is trying to show this, but I just couldn’t get it to focus on the right point. img_5229%20detector.jpg Now I have a question. Does anyone know how to take the lens assembly apart on the Eumig 610D? I can see there is condensation or dirt on the inside of the lenses and I want to clean them.

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 04 04:39

Hi James This looks interesting, but I'm half way through the other set up. Please look at my previous post about the opal diffuser glass. I have no idea where to look for it Thanks Albie

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 04 04:44

avz10 : Thanks Ronypony! Advice on the next step please! The 20 Watt lamp is in and working, now I need advice on the 50 mm opal diffuser glass. What is that exactly, where does one usually get something like that and are there any alternatives? I might find one of those little editing machines, which one uses to attach films- would that glass be sufficient? Thanks Albie There are a couple of possibilities as far as the 'diffuser' is concerned. You can purchase a high quality opal diffuser made from glass here http://www.knightoptical.co.uk/acatalog/DiffusersFlashedOpalDiffuserDiameter.htm The one you want is DFO5000...50mm diameter. They are not expensive and will ship to you quickly OR buy a sheet of this plastic acrylic sheet and cut your own...much much cheaper...works just as well as the glass and an A4 sheet will provide a dozen 50mm diffusers http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250368199792 I use the original metal wire clip that holds the bulb in the holder to secure the diffusser...like this

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 04 04:59

James Your triggering system looks fantastic...you know whats coming don't you :D Please start producing kits for purchase including detailed instructions on how to fit said kit to projector :D Seriously though I would be incredibly interested in this innovative triggering system.

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 04 05:05

Thanks for that Im just not clear. I will buy a sheet of this plastic acrylic sheet and cut my own. Is that the stuff with the one side being sticky that you put on a surface or what do you use it for- sorry about my ignorance.

JamesRueben posted 2009 Apr 04 05:22

Avz10 – I just use a piece of plain white paper as a diffuser, held in with paper clips. May not be as good as an opal diffuser, but it seems to work. Ronypony – I will try to write this up properly, but it will be after Easter. It is basically the circuit in the top left of figure 1 at http://www.jeffree.co.uk/pages/revmaster.htm plus a switch to disable the detector input and another switch to create a left mouse click for testing (I find the USB mouse tends to go to sleep after a while not being used and it allows me to check it’s registering the left click before I start the projector going). In the circuit, the 0 V and clock outputs go to the left mouse button as before (making sure the 0 V goes to the 0 V side on the mouse). The tricky thing is to find where to get the 5 V from the USB. Don’t use phonos as there is a real danger of shorting the 5 V and I don’t know whether USB drivers protect against this. I found the 5 V on one end of a resistor, but it was really tight to solder it. the red wire below is the 5 V pickup. img_5187%20mouse%20internal.jpg

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 04 05:47

James, doesn't white paper block too much? I have obtained a 20 Watt light. Was just thinking of other possibilities as well- this is a garden light wit a white plastic cover, wouldnt that be a possibility or frosted glass?

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 04 08:14

The diffuser is ...as its name suggests...used to evenly diffuse/distribute light across the whole frame of film as it runs through the gate of the projector preventing 'hot spots' on your transfered footage. I would have thought that paper would not provide an even distribution of light...also there is still quite a bit of heat from a 20 watt bulb...I am sure this would cinge the paper turning it brown eventually. The acrylic plastic is simply an A4 sheet...no sticky side at all. The photo you posted Albie shows a protective sheet of paper that you simply peel off. I used a compass to draw out a 50 mm circle...then drew a square around the circle...cut out the square and then trimmed the edges off the square until I had a perfect 50mm circle of plastic...you could use a 50mm hole saw to obtain your circle if you have one. I bought the A4 sheet off the Ebay link I posted. The sheet has excellent diffusing properties and is not affected by the heat from the bulb. I did swop out the 20 watt bulb for a a G4 fitting LED light source (no heat at all)...but it was not that successful so went back to the 20w bulb. I reckon any hardware or art store would be able to provide such a sheet of opaque acrylic platic sheet. The garden light cover might work...is it opaque ?...i.e. not transparent...if so it will probably do the job.

rlorenz2 posted 2009 Apr 05 11:23

I am having trouble finding a copy of cinecap (pc) or capturemate (mac). I have the trial version of capturemate but you can only capture 350 frames. Does anyone have any older full versions of either of the software that they are willing to share or let me purchase? I would really appricate any help on this. I have build the machine on http://www.movie2video.com/ only with out the frame counter. if you have any questions regarding my design i would be glad to answer any questions.

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 05 12:49

Check your private messages rlorenz2 :D

JamesRueben posted 2009 Apr 05 13:51

ronypony : The diffuser is ...as its name suggests...used to evenly diffuse/distribute light across the whole frame of film as it runs through the gate of the projector preventing 'hot spots' on your transfered footage. I would have thought that paper would not provide an even distribution of light...also there is still quite a bit of heat from a 20 watt bulb...I am sure this would cinge the paper turning it brown eventually. I have just finished capturing my mother-in-law's three hours of cine. I think you may be right about the paper having a hot spot. It does a fairly good job of spreading the light, but right at the corners of the frame it can look a bit dark. No sign of it going brown yet, but it is something I am aware I need to look out for. I think I will try to get some acrylic sheet before attempting my father's 20 hours worth. Once I had everything lined up I was able to keep loading another reel and capture again. I only had three problems: making sure the gate was clean, one broken splice and trying to make the frames not overexposed. The overexposure was due to my camcorder. Despite the manual claiming I could turn off auto exposure, most of the settings resulted in flashing images as the camcorder kept trying to adjust for the different light levels as the gate opens and closes. The only one that worked was a low light setting, but even this took about three seconds where it adjusted light levels when the projector came off a black leader. I will have to correct the exposure on the PC.

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 06 05:59

Nice one James... Get the acrylic sheet here http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250368199792 or Glass diffuser here http://www.knightoptical.co.uk/acatalog/DiffusersFlashedOpalDiffuserDiameter.htm As far as your exposure problems are concerned..I too have experienced the flashing/pulsing you describe. Surely under the manual exposure setting on your camcorder the f stop value will remain set unless you 'manually' change it .....least thats how it works on my camcorder. I can increse or decrease exposure settings on the fly during capture...a little adjustment here and there if I need to. White balance is crucial too...I have my camera set at a 50% setting...try messing about with your white balance settings...see if that helps.....also use manual focus too...this prevents the camera from 'hunting' as light levels of footage change.

boobootrasher posted 2009 Apr 08 12:27

I’ve come to the conclusion that the real trick here is to capture the frame exactly as the film is held stationary and the shutter is fully open. After several more tests, I do not think that the micro switch in the said place is the way to go, especially if you have damaged film as I do. Sure, it seems to work fine with a fresh 50 ft roll but I don’t like the idea of losing odd frames here and there on the strength of a very difficult to adjust micro switch. Back to my own tests again as said in my last post. I have studied the frames pre- cinicap,. and to my utter amazement have found that some frames seem combined together. The camera that I was using has a very slow stutter speed and I can only imagine that this is the cause of my jerkiness after converting. The film was captured at 3 fps. This leads me on to another question.. 3 fps is believe it or not is to fast for me, all my footage is changing very fast and it is difficult to keep up when using the camera’s exposure controls. (You know, I don’t like the idea of a new shot opening either burnt out or too dark for an odd frame.) I’ve been thinking to change the 601D so that it can be hand cranked. I know what you are saying now... That im time stupid, but this is my own very treasured home movies. I don’t compare myself with those who wish to do thousands of ft in a business venture.

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 09 11:16

Have you attempted a tranfer in real time at 18fps ?......I get pretty decent results with this type of transfer...less than 3fps will take forevever to transfer even a 50 foot reel of film...jeez even 3fps is sloooooooow :shock:

JamesRueben posted 2009 Apr 10 03:34

Boobootrasher the speed you can capture can be very dependent on your PC. I used to have a PC that was about 4 or 5 years old, 2.6 GHz with a single hard disk. I thought this should be plenty fast enough, but the trouble with the single hard disk is that Windows is forever accessing it in the background so just downloading normal video from a digital camcorder would drop frames. I solved this by buying a second hard disk used exclusively for the video. Last Christmas I bought Cinecap and started experimenting with the microswitch set up. Like you I found it was very variable, dependent on the tension of different bits of the film. I started at 9 fps then had to drop to 6 fps, but I lost frames due to both the microswitch and the PC not keeping up. Then my son complained he had a game that wouldn’t run on our old computer so eventually I bought a new one with quad core 2.4 GHz and two hard drives in a RAID 0 array (load sharing). I also changed my capture signal to use the infra red photo diode I have mentioned above. I can now capture at a full 18 fps and don’t drop a frame. I know it’s not easy to just go out and buy a new PC. If it wasn’t for my son and his game I would still be on the old PC but using the infra red. There are things you can do for your existing PC to help improve the capture speed. The first thing to try would be to defrag the hard disk. If it’s badly fragmented the hard disk will take a lot of time trying to find free spaces which cuts your capture speed. If you can afford it I would recommend installing a second hard disk of at least 250 GB. This can be used exclusively for video and won’t be spending time going off doing Windows background tasks. I hope something of this is helpful to you and you can improve your capture speed. ronypony : As far as your exposure problems are concerned..I too have experienced the flashing/pulsing you describe. Surely under the manual exposure setting on your camcorder the f stop value will remain set unless you 'manually' change it .....least thats how it works on my camcorder. I can increse or decrease exposure settings on the fly during capture...a little adjustment here and there if I need to. White balance is crucial too...I have my camera set at a 50% setting...try messing about with your white balance settings...see if that helps.....also use manual focus too...this prevents the camera from 'hunting' as light levels of footage change. Thanks for the advice. I don’t get any control over the f stop, there are just five preset modes called things like sport, snow, spotlight and low light. Manual focus I can control so that is already sorted out. White balance I can adjust but haven’t so far as it seemed to be keeping the colours reasonable. I will try this locked at 50% to start with and see how it affects the flashing. I can adjust my exposure in software but it would be better if it was right in the first place. I will also get the acrylic sheet.

boobootrasher posted 2009 Apr 10 04:37

I’m happy to spend the time at 3 fps. My PC is about 3 - 4 years old. It’s an Athlon 3.800 GHz 64 with 1.5 G of RAM. I have 2 x 200 G hard drives with a good graphics card. At the time of purchase it was the fastest thing going.. I think she still holds up ok The camera is connected by fire wire.

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 14 15:58

I would like to summarize where I am in the process and my big obstacles. I converted the mouse: Remember it should be under the left "click". This is working well. I changed the light to a 20 Watt (I have just changed to a 50 Watt, will explain) This is the diffuser- bought some plastic with diffusing properties Built a stand for the projector and lens But really struggled to get a picture using just the lens and the camera, so I changed to a piece of white paper to project on. Light was to weak, so I changed it to 50 Watt, no hot spot. Would this be a major problem? My biggest problem (PROBLEM 1)- erratic clicking of the microswitch. I bought a meter with a buzzer, but with any film change, the tension is not the same and I get either no capturing, or erratic capturing. This is most probably the result of different tension in different films. So my feeling is that one should try to move away from the trigger that is dependant on film tension. I was thinking, as the rear wheel is turning relatively slowly, can't one put a microswitch here? There is an opening for a small piece of metal, that if added can trigger a microswitch? My last question is about the settings of Cinecap. Before I capture frames, do I need to set it at 15/16 fps? When I play back, it always look as if it is in fast forward (Please take me through this process step by step) Thanks in advance. So basically 2 problems: erratic working of the microswitch and how to set cine cap Edit: I think I have solved the speed transfer. This is how I have it: I drag the 8mm AVI to the 15/16 filder and then process it. Without testing it properly, it looks as if the speed is right now. Erratic working of microswitch I transferred some film last night. The way that I am doing it now, causes the projected image to be a bit weak- so my light will need to be stronger, but the quality was quite good. Nothing that Virtualdub cannot fix, BUT especially when I start, I lose frames. This becomes better halfway through the film[/b]

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 15 06:38

Further to my last post, I was playing around with the idea if one cannot mount the microswitch at the rear spindle wheel. This pin with some modification, might trigger a microswitch, but it might cause a problem when one rewinds a film. The round wheel, closest to the camera feels as if it is moving at a constant speed. Looking at the front, that wheel is moving at different speeds. I was thinking, if one could put a wider wheel between the wheel and the body of the camera, might that not work? But then I suppose, the new "wheel" will need to have several notches in the circumference??? Any help please???

JamesRueben posted 2009 Apr 18 03:34

I am puzzled that the conversion you did with the standard 15/16 fps category looks ok, all this does is interlace the frames with no speed change. As you say the unconverted film looks like it’s in fast forward it would indicate you need to change speed. By default the cine should be 18 fps and if you play it back without conversion it will run it at 25 fps so it will look a bit fast. The following is based on Wikipedia stating that South Africa uses PAL at 25 fps. If this is not the case you will need to adjust accordingly. The cine you are capturing is at 18 fps (standard cine 8 mm speed) and you need to change to 25 fps. To do this in CineCap, go to the Multiple File Speed Change dialog and click on the Add Category button. Enter a name in the Descriptive name box, then click on the arrow for Make video playback look like. In the drop down list that appears select Custom. Now click the Suggest button next to the Custom Pattern and in the dialog box that opens set film speed to 18 and Video Speed to 25 fps (PAL), then click ok. Now click on Compression Codec and select DV video Encoder. You can now click on the Image Flip drop down and select Horizontal Flip. Finally you can click on “Use Interlacing for Smoother Playback”, I don’t have this set but I haven’t played with it to see if it’s better. You could always set up two different speed change categories, one with and one without interlacing so you could compare results. When you have done all this the dialog box will look like this and you can press on Add. Now drag your files to be converted to the new 25 fps category you have created. Regarding the capture problems and the microswitch I don’t think you can easily use the rear spindle. Yes the sprocket will be moving at a constant speed, but it may be difficult to convert this to a frame trigger and get the timing right. The round wheel is the tension adjustment for the clutch on the rear spindle. As the rear spindle fills with film it will gradually slow down and the clutch is adjusted to slip so the reel will just take up the slack without breaking the film. I also had problems with the microswitch and used the infra red detector I described above. Due to problems loading images, you have to click on some of the links in my postings to see the images. Another solution has been done by Hergow (see above) where he has fitted a cam on the main drive shaft.

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 18 10:09

Hi James Thanks for the comments, but I have stopped because I struggle with the microswitch. I want to use your method with the IR receiver, but the article you used is totally above my head!!!The photos confuses me, etc. I understand the principle (IR to circuit to mouse), but the detail is my problem. Is this the circuit you used? Now this is the first part of your circuit. Is this mainly for the IR, or what are the other parts- or to make it easier- to what photo does this correspond? Or to make my life easier, what are the components used? Same questions here: This part I will be able to manage: So, in other words, if I go to an electronic shop, what do I need to buy and if you can draw a rough sketch of how everything fits together or refer me to the relevant pictures, I will really be grateful Thanks Albie (Just two things- I upload photos with photobucket-(under the photo, I used the Image code link) and in Picasa from Google, one can add text to a photo)

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 18 19:42

Albie Going back to projecting on a piece of paper is kind of defeating the purpose.You may as well just transfer off the wall. If I were you I would try the 20w bulb and lens once more. Before attempting to capture with your camcorder have some film running through the projector at say 9fps. Take a sheet of paper and tape it to the front of your condenser lens. Now project onto the paper and move your lens closer or further away from the projector until you have a nice sharp image on the paper. It will only be a small image.Once you have your lens set at the correct distance from the projector you can remove the paper.Mark this distance so you dont have to keep measuring it.Now crouch down and look through your condenser lens with one eye shut ..move your head until you see the image 'floating' in the lens. This is the image you will record with your camcorder....rewind your film and project at 3fps to capture using CineCap and modified mouse. Take your captured footage from the folder it was captured to and drag the file into the 18fps folder under 'speed change' in CineCap...let CineCap process the footage...voila..play back processed file and it will be running at 18fps. I dont like to be critical but you microswitch adjuster looks non too clever to me dude...is it doing its job of preventing the switch from moving. Remember the switch can only be moved to the right by the film tensioner...its the 'adjusters job to prevent this movement of the microswitch from happening....I find my version of the adjuster does a pretty good job of ensuring reliable triggering even with different film stocks running through the projector. Have another crack at it...I am sure you can achieve some decent transfers once you have things set up right. Here is a simple 'jig/base I constructed out of wood to keep things lined up....it works well

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 18 23:46

Thanks for your comments. : Take a sheet of paper and tape it to the front of your condenser lens. Now project onto the paper and move your lens closer or further away from the projector until you have a nice sharp image on the paper. It will only be a small image.Once you have your lens set at the correct distance from the projector you can remove the paper.Mark this distance so you dont have to keep measuring it. This is exactly what I did, and I fixed the lens with screws on that spot. But I struggled to find the image in the lens with my camcorder, although it was clear on the paper. I kept on getting the white circle. So, I was projecting through the lens on to the paper and taped that. But I'm happy to try again. If I position the microswitch when the film is halfway, I can get it 100%. It captures every frame, my problem is at the beginning of the film that frames are dropped. But there is no rush, I will keep on playing. I just thought that James' way sounded good, but I've never built a circuit, so I thought I'll give it a go- if I understand all the finer details!! Albie

avz10 posted 2009 Apr 19 00:28

James, I posted the same post that I posted yesterday (18 April) on an electronics website. This is what a guy answered: : First, some of what you have posted does not seem to be related to what you want to do. Specifically, the schematic you posted is for a tachometer. It uses reflected IR to generate pulses that are counted with the microcontroller (16F84) and displayed on an LCD as RPM or some other function, such as cutting speed for a lathe. Your project seems much simpler. Refer to a redrawn portion from the posted schematic: The +5V and ground come from the mouse. R1 limits the current to the IR emitting diode (IRED) in the sensor device. As the reflected IR light hits the detector, it allows more current to pass. Voltage drop across R2 increases, and thus the signal goes from +5V (no current through R2) to some much lower value. NB: The part I picked for the schematic is an optocoupler. In your device, the IRED is not pointed directly at the detector, but rather is pointed perpendicular to it, so the detector sees only reflected light. In your picture, the sensor is the rectangular black device with 4 pins. The rest of the schematic you posted is not related to your project. I believe the mouse modification you show in your earlier post simply takes that "low" signal and treats is as a "click", i.e., switch closure, for one of the mouse buttons. At least, that's what the picture of the modified mouse PCB looks like has been done. You may need some interfacing, but it may also just work as is. You also show a small interface box. It is hard to know what is in it from the picture. The "mouse click" from the optical sensor then keys the camera via a program in your PC. R2 is probably a fairly high value, maybe 1K to 10K ohms. R1 is probably just 100 to 200 ohm. I could not find the part number you reference in the source of datasheets I use. Is that what you did and what are the values of the components? Thanks Albie

ronypony posted 2009 Apr 21 04:57

Albie If you are having difficulty focusing on the 'ariel' image in the condenser lens try this : Ensure you have a nice sharp ariel image and then position your tripod with camcorder about 25 cm away from the condenser lens. Try to focus in on the ariel image at this distance. Depending on what you get you may have to move the tripod closer to the lens or further away. You need to experiment with this stage until you get the 'sweet spot' when you will seee a sharp in focus image in your camcorder's LCD screen.Once you have established this crucial distance it will be a lot easier to set up time after time. Give it another go. I would try to find a more suitable piece of plastic/wood for your microswitch srew adjuter. I used a little bit of plastic which was originaly used hold up shelves in a shelving unit.-

avz10 posted 2009 May 02 06:33

I haven't really done a lot, just had time this morning to figure out James' project. Just to see if I am heading the right direction: If I connect my multimeter to the mouse with the black cable connected to "E" and the red cable to "F" and the reading is +3.3 Volt, does it mean that E is the signal or F is the signal? Does this mean that E is 0 Volt and F is the signal? My next question is about finding a 5 Volt spot. "A" is connected to the red mouse cable and from what I have read is 5 Volt (??) And then some help with the Photo reflector. What would be similar products that I can try and found in South Africa? Thanks for any advice. I havent tried thee microswitch again, nor did I try to find the aerial image

avz10 posted 2009 May 08 23:53

I attach better photos of the mouse, for you that know circuits/electronics! Thanks!

JamesRueben posted 2009 May 09 06:18

Photos are much clearer. I have also found the spec sheet for the main controller IC on your mouse so I have been able to confirm the pins. On your drawing above, A is 0V as is E (the USB wire colours don’t match the ones in the link I sent you previously). Pin B is 5V and F is your signal input. Looking at your later photo there is an empty hole where you can pick up the 5V or if you prefer on one end of a resistor (make sure you take it from the end shown). I am looking into other IR detectors available in SA and will get back to you. http://za.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method ... ;R=1944018 looks a good candidate, but I am still checking resistor values.

avz10 posted 2009 May 09 10:36

Thanks James Finally I can go ahead. Will probably start next week to build!! Will keep everyone posted

avz10 posted 2009 May 10 04:16

Hi James I think I will use the Optek IR sensor that you directed me to. Their address is not far from where we live. Hopefully one of the last questions- what cable is suppose to connect to what pin?? So to summarize: I have a 5 Volt point My signal is "F" as in the previous post Ground goes nowhere and I need a 270 Ohm and 10 KOhm resistor. Is this right? Will buy this week and then gradually start to build Thanks for all your trouble Albie

JamesRueben posted 2009 May 10 05:28

I've been looking further at the Optek OPB608A. You can get a more up to date spec sheet for it here http://www.optekinc.com/datasheets/OPB608.PDF. As you found earlier the input from your mouse switch is normally at 3.3 V, the spec sheet for your mouse controller confirms this http://www.emc.com.tw/twn/database/Data_Sheet/PC/eKM8065.pdf. Because of this I think it is safer if the transistor part of the detector uses 3.3 V, while the LED part carries on with 5 V. Again there is an empty hole on your mouse where you can pick up the 3.3 V. Because of the change of device and the 3.3 V you also need to change the resistor values. I have annotated a modified circuit for you. R1 is now 180 ohms and R2 is 7k2 (7200 ohms). Be careful with the pinout of the OPB608A, pins 2 and 4 that you need to connect together are diagonally opposite. You asked previously about the small box in my photos with the switches on. This contains the switches and both resistors, while the L shaped pcb only holds the IR detector. This was to allow me to make changes to the resistor values without having to unmount the IR detector every time. The following shows how to achieve this. Use a plug and socket to connect the IR detector pcb to the switch box pcb, 4-pin mini DIN is ideal. Make sure the plug connects to the IR detector and the socket to the switch box, this is to make sure the voltages don't get accidentally shorted out. SW1 is a single pole, single throw switch which is essential to isolate the IR detector. With the microswitch design you tried before, once the film stops so do the sync pulses because there is no tension on the film. With the IR detector the sync pulses are generated from the shutter gate which keeps going after the end of the film as long as the projector is playing, so you need to be able to stop this quickly. SW2 is a push to make, non latching pushbutton. It is used for testing purposes to be able to generate a few mouse clicks when needed. Be careful when soldering to your mouse, the two connections you have already made look quite large and you need to be sure you don't short any tracks together. When you have built the detector circuit try it out on the table by moving a piece of white paper onto and away from the detector to check it triggers a mouse click. Once you are sure it is working, then try mounting in the projector. It is a lot easier to find faults with the detector circuit before you install into the projector.

avz10 posted 2009 May 11 11:01

Thanks for all your trouble. I phoned the guys this afternoon and they have stock. Will go and buy this week. I cant believe you can get all the info! Please look at the circuit that we have been using and your one- shouldn't the 3 and 4 on your one be the other way? Keep well Albie

avz10 posted 2009 May 15 13:32

Hi Reuben I started to build this afternoon, but might have burnt the IR receptor, as I do not get any signal when I wave white paper/use a fluorescent tube, switch the light of the room on and off, etc. I do get readings at the different points. I'm not sure if I did anything wrong. (The IR receiver is very cheap and I can easily buy another one) I have changed the 3 and 4 as previously mentioned, but have also tried the other way. See what values I'm getting: Thanks Albie

JamesRueben posted 2009 May 16 04:34

According to the manufacturer’s spec sheets it is the way round I showed. Your measurements agree with this. The part between pins 3 and 4 is a light emitting diode (LED) and as a diode it only lets current flow one way, that is the direction of the arrow. On the part of the spec sheet you have shown above you can see the arrow points from pin 3 to pin 4. So for current to flow (and the LED to emit light) this means pin 3 must be more positive than pin 4. In my drawing I just turned it round because it is easier to follow, but I still have the arrow going from pin 3 to pin 4. In your circuit in your last post you have pin 3 to connected to 0 V and pin 4 to 5 V (via the 180 ohm resistor). This way round the LED will block current flow and will not emit light. This is exactly what you have measured, you have 5 V at pin 4 which shows there is no current flow. If you swap the connections round so that 4 goes to ground and 3 to the resistor you should be able to measure about 1.7 V. This figure is shown on the spec sheet as the forward voltage of the LED and is what would be expected when it is allowing current to flow. The half of the device between pins 1 and 2 is the phototransistor. This device acts like a switch, when it detects the light from the LED it turns the switch on and connects pin 1 to pin 2. When it doesn’t detect light it turns off and disconnects pins 1 and 2. Even when switched on it will only allow the current to flow in one direction, similar to the LED, the arrow shows the direction of current flow, which is why pin 1 connects to 3.3 V via the resistor and pin 2 connects to 0 V. At the moment the phototransistor is not detecting light so it is off and pin 1 will be at about 3.3 V. Again this ties up with what you have measured. When you change the LED connections round as above and measure about 1.7 V between pins 3 and 4 then you should see some changes between pin 1 and 2. With the LED connected with 3 and 4 swapped and there is 1.7 V between them, when there is nothing in front of the detector you will still measure 3.3 V. When you bring a piece of white paper close to it then the phototransistor should turn on and you should measure about 0.4 V between 1 and 2. This is listed on the spec sheet as the VCE Saturation Voltage. I don’t think you have blown the device at this stage, since the measurements you have made are what would be expected for how you have it wired. Unless at some point you shorted out one of the resistors there is no reason to think it should have burnt out. I think you are very close to getting it working.

avz10 posted 2009 May 16 10:36

Working!! Thanks a million

JamesRueben posted 2009 May 17 17:27

Excellent news. Glad to have been of assistance.

avz10 posted 2009 May 30 12:05

Well, not quite there yet!!? The IR receiver and all my connections (converted mouse; circuit board) are working well. My finger, or any white paper triggers a signal which captures a frame on Cinecap, BUT, the paper, my finger, etc need to be very close to the surface of the IR receiver to trigger the signal. I have now painted the one blade white, but it only works when I bring the IR receiver to the stationary blade. If the blade rotates at 3fps, it does not trigger a signal, although I bring the receiver quite close. I can see two possibilities- either put something on the blade ?paper, I other material which the receiver will pick up, or get a stronger?? IR receiver. Any thoughts about this? I feel so thrilled that after months I am nearly there Regards Albie

avz10 posted 2009 May 30 17:17

Hi James, Ronypony and any one else I have posted the following on a few sites and just think it is right to post it here too- although it is a repetition of my previous post: "I have started to build a system/circuit to capture old cine 8/super 8 using the Cinecap programme. I am having trouble to get the IR receiver being triggered when a white blade moves passed the IR receiver. (There are three blades of which I have painted one white i.e. 2 black blades will pass before the white blade is supposedly required to trigger the system) For the system I used the following- A cine projector that can run as slow as 3 frames per second (Eumig 610D). The moment that the frame "stops" for a split second, you need your camcorder to record the image and these frames are put together by the Cinecap into an AVI file. So when the frame stops, a trigger needs to be activated. In this case an IR receiver is the trigger. (I also tried with a microswitch, but the capturing was erratic) My video camera is a 3CCD Panasonic NV GS250 I have done the following: I converted a mouse (acknowledge James Rueben): Used the following circuit (acknowledge James Rueben):: Connected to an IR receiver: OPB608A http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/22/229105_1.pdf The IR receiver and all my connections (converted mouse; circuit board) are working well. My finger, or any white paper triggers a signal which captures a frame via my camcorder on Cinecap, BUT, the paper, my finger, etc need to be very close to the surface of the IR receiver to trigger the signal. As mentioned before, I painted one of the three blades white, which will hopefully be triggered by the white blade going past.(acknowledge James Rueben): It only works when I bring the IR receiver very close to the stationary blade. If the blade rotates at 3fps, it does not trigger a signal, although I bring the receiver quite close. What is the solution?: I can see two possibilities 1. Either put something on the blade ? white paper, other material which the IR receiver will pick up (this is where I need advice and this will be the easiest), 2. Or get a stronger?? IR receiver. I feel that there must be a way to produce a strong input by means of some material to create the trigger. I used PVA paint. Any advice will be helpful. Will try it out in the next week or two. Regards Albie I need to acknowledge the help I got from James Rueben in this regard- he initiated IR the project, with the initial input from Ronypony. Having Trouble with DIY Telecine (8mm) System - VideoHelp.com"

buckethead posted 2009 Jun 01 16:16

albie : two things come to mind. 1) Try using a reflective tape on your blade. Something with a chrome or shiny silver finish. 2) If you have an oscilloscope, look at the pulse coming from pin 1 of the optical sensor. It may not be clean enough. If you are not getting a nice rectangular pulse here, you may need to add a 555 ic, configured as a "monostable" or "one shot" multivibrator. For reference : http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/555/555.html This will take the negative pulse from pin one of the optical sensor and output a nice clean positive going pulse controlled by the RC time constant that you select. Hope this helps, Mark

JamesRueben posted 2009 Jun 06 04:30

Sorry for the delay in replying. It may be the resistor values I gave you need adjustment. To work this out, I need you to make some voltage measurements. I have labelled four points on the circuit A, B, C and D. The measurements need to be made between the zero volt line and each point in turn. First with the projector turned off and the shutter blades turned away from the IR receiver, measure the voltage at the four points. Now turn the blades so the white painted one is close to the IR receiver at the point where it triggers the mouse and repeat the measurements. What I hope to tell from this is how much current the LED part is drawing and how much current the phototransistor draws when it is turned on. To work out the current I will need to assume the resistor values are as in your marked up version of my circuit above with R1 equal to 180 ohms and R2 equal to 6k2 (6200). The graphs in the spec sheet for the IR receiver imply it is most sensitive at about 0.02" or about 0.5 mm, which ties up with what you are finding. But it should still operate fine at 0.1" or about 2.5 mm. If you can trigger it with just your hand this sounds good as human skin should not be as reflective as gloss white paint. The spec sheets also say it will trigger in microseconds which is at least 100 times faster than you need even at 18 fps. It may be you need a circuit similar to the one suggested by buckethead to clean up the pulses, but let's see how the voltage measurements come out first.

avz10 posted 2009 Jun 06 15:55

Hi James This is a temporary set-up, the distance probably 1mm or a bit more (those small lines on the yellow background are millimeters) These are my readings: Projector off: A: 1.29 B: 3.4 C: 3.4 D: 4.2 Projector on: A: 1.29 B: 2.8; 2.9 C: 3.4 D: 4.2 So the only difference I could detect was with B Regards Albiie

JamesRueben posted 2009 Jun 07 04:15

Sorry Albie, I wasn't clear about the second set of measurements. I should have added this was also projector off and stationary blades with the white one next to the sensor. If your second set is with projector stationary, then the phototransistor is definitely not switching on enough. If the blades are moving it is not possible to tell. What I can tell so far is that the LED is working and drawing about 16 mA. R1 could be reduced in value to increase the current to a maximum value of 50 mA. This will make the LED brighter and therefore more likely to switch the transistor on, but it may also cause it to switch on when you don't want if it gets a bit of reflection from one of the matt black blades for instance. For the moment let's leave this where it is. The 5 V supply is lower than expected which could indicate a problem with volt drop on the cable (cable to long or too thin). However as the 3.3 V supply is good it doesn't indicate a generic problem here with the cable and this is the more important one for switching. If it was working as expected B should be around 0.4 V when the projector is off and the white blade is in front. Once you can either confirm this was your measuring condition or repeat the second set in this condition I should be able to suggest the next step. Just to be sure there are no problems with the cables and to save exchanging another set of messages with my one week delay added, can you also check the voltages where you have connected wires to your mouse as follows. Measure against the same zero volt point you used previously. Projector off, blades stationary and turned away from the IR receiver: measure the 5 V (point E), 3.3 V (point F) and signal (point G). This set should be at the same time as the first set. Projector off, blades stationary and white painted blade in front of the IR receiver: measure the 5 V (point E), 3.3 V (point F) and signal (point G). This set should be at the same time as the second set. These should be the same or very close in value to B, C and D, but will allow any cable problems to be eliminated. As a final check on the cables, measure between the zero volt point on the detector circuit and the zero volt point on the mouse. The projector state doesn't matter for this one. This should of course be zero or very close to it. Don't let these setbacks get to you, you are still close to getting it working. I am impressed how well you are doing with no background in electronics, especially as there is a one week delay between feedback to you. I have also learnt that I need to make it clear what I am saying. I will try to check my email again tonight, but can't guarantee it.

avz10 posted 2009 Jun 07 04:46

Hi James I'm leaving for the airport right now. Unfortunately I tested with the blades rotating!! Will try only after next week and will post the values then. These are some of the places that I have posted- might be interesting for you to see their comments. http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=24107 http://www.dutchforce.com/~eforum/index.php?showtopic=26847 http://www.electro-tech-online.com/electronic-projects-design-ide ... paint.html Keep well and thanks Albie

avz10 posted 2009 Jun 12 14:12

Hi James Here are the results: With the IR detector facing away from the blade: A: 1.3V B: 3.4 V C: 3.4 V D: 4.25 V With the IR detector facing towards the stationary blade: A: 1.3V B: 1.55 mV C: 3.4 V D: 4.25 V : Projector off, blades stationary and turned away from the IR receiver: measure the 5 V (point E), 3.3 V (point F) and signal (point G). E: 4.25 F: 3.4 G: 3.4 : Projector off, blades stationary and white painted blade in front of the IR receiver: measure the 5 V (point E), 3.3 V (point F) and signal (point G). E: 4.25V F: 3.4V G: 155mV : As a final check on the cables, measure between the zero volt point on the detector circuit and the zero volt point on the mouse. The projector state doesn't matter for this one. This should of course be zero or very close to it. 0.02mV So it looks as my point E just produces 4.25V. Should I try a different spot, or is this OK? One can see there is a definite drop in the signal when the sensor is in front of the stationary blade. At least one can also see what happened when the blade was rotating (previous post) Thanks for your advice Regards Albie

JamesRueben posted 2009 Jun 13 04:51

No problem with the 4.25 V since it is the same at D and E, so there is none dropped in the wiring. The only value that stands out is G at 155 mV, which might mean a volt drop on the wire between B and G. However even then it is still low enough to trigger the mouse input which only needs to be below 0.8 V (800 mV). May just need to resolder the connections at either end of this wire. I looked at the other forums and I think a lot of people have been confusing things. Without a doubt the best feedback you have is from Mr RB on http://www.electro-tech-online.com/electronic-projects-design-ide ... paint.html. Try his suggestion of replacing R2 with 100 k, or even take it out altogether as there is an internal resistor of 170 k in the mouse. I would not recommend changing R1, the results you have measured show it is turning the transistor on. I also wouldn't recommend an opto-interrupter for all the same reasons given by Mr RB. As I said before you are really close to getting it working.

avz10 posted 2009 Jun 16 07:33

I need serious help. With R2 replaced by 100k Ohm B (Output) Stationary: 3.1V (facing away from white blade) Facing white blade: 0.07 mV Moving: 2.4Volt Does not trigger “Capture” on Cinecap With R2 replaced by 100kOhm and R1 replaced by 68 Ohm: B: Stationary: 3.38V (facing away from white blade) Facing white blade: 0.37 mV Moving: 1.68Volt Does not trigger “Capture” on Cinecap So, I am not sure what I am doing wrong. I bought this Slotted IR optical switch yesterday (OPB365T), just in case I get stuck: Datasheet: http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/344/OPB365P55.php Does the beam need to be broken in that first 1mm transparent part, or does the object need to go deeper in the slit? If so, I can try to mount it close to two movable parts, that move only when a frame advances (so it is stationary and then either move down- that white piece) Or to the right: These two possible trigger points are very consistent. So, should I try this optical switch, I need to know the following 1. How deep should the object need to go in the slit (because if it needs to go deeper, it might be difficult)II thought of attaching a rigid plastic to the "moving" side of one ot the trigger points. 2. What wires should be connected to what pins (For me this is very important, being a newbie to electronics) 3. Do I need resistors? Some good news- I have managed to set-up my projector/lens/camcorder and get a sharp aerial image. Once I have sorted my electronics out, what programme did you use to edit? I know Virtualdub. If you used it, what filters did you use? (or am I jumping the gun) Thanks Albie

JamesRueben posted 2009 Jun 16 12:34

Taking R1 down to 68 ohms gives you a current of 43 mA which is getting very near the limit for the LED and you risk burning it out. Your first measurement with 100 k for R2 showed you were getting an output down to 0.07 mV which is more than adequate. I strongly recommend you put the 180 resistor back. Mr RB suggested fitting a trimpot, this may well be the solution because you can then adjust the value of R2. I would put the original 6k2 in series with this so if you wind the trimpot to zero it won't burnout the transistor. Before doing this I just want to check something. Did you fit a switch which I showed as SW2 in my posting back in my posting on page 4 of this topic dated 10 05 09? Have you tried with this switch (or the original left mouse button in the modified mouse if it's still there) to see if it will trigger Cinecap. I found the modified mouse goes to sleep after a while and needs to be unplugged from the USB and plugged back in again to wake it up.

avz10 posted 2009 Jun 21 01:15

I have used my IR detector and mounted it to the rear trigger. R1: 68 OHM R2: 100k (not a trimpot) Picture of the triggering system- works well, up to now: The putty didn't com out so neat! No, I didn't install a switch, but I will see how it goes

boobootrasher posted 2009 Jun 21 04:52

Hi, back again after doing a few more tests. Two things about Cinecap. I’ve Now had my master files back from Video station. They did a good job of transferring a number of 50 ft reels at 25 fps. I know that projector speeds are not constant, even after warm up, (Dismissing variable speed projectors here for a moment.) it has been my experience that a full 50 ft Super 8 reel should at 18 fps, project a running time of 3 minutes and 20 seconds. 24 fps comes in at about 3 minutes. I stand corrected of course. I find that Cinecap’s default 18 fps is wrong. This is what I found. I took 1 50 ft reel and converted it on the 601d, I lost no frames. I then took the same film file from Video station and compared the two, they were the same length. I converted the films in Cinecap using the 18 fps. The resulting footage was 2 minutes and 59 seconds long. I know that I may perhaps come across a bit picky here but achieving the correct running speed is important to me. You see, about 20 years ago I had the same footage professionally transferred using the best system available to me at the time. It was done on a variable speed projector at about 16 fps to reduce flicker. This always annoyed me when I compared it to the running speeds of my projectors. Viewing the footage before and after converting in Cinecap only frustrated me more. The good news is that I played around with the settings in Cinecap and found that setting the speed change characteristics to 16/17 or 16/17 fps gives very good results indeed. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this? I just think that there may be many users out there who are blindly converting their footage at the wrong speed, although for most this is an unimportant factor and of course this is all based upon knowing what speed that original footage was shot at too. The other thing I would like to ask is... I want to do a complete restore on my PC and give it a good clean up Not having saved my Cinecape program before installing it I will loose it. I Have bought the licence and have the key safe etc but where can I find the original trial to download again as I hear that it is no longer available.

avz10 posted 2009 Jun 23 03:39

Hi James : Before doing this I just want to check something. Did you fit a switch which I showed as SW2 in my posting back in my posting on page 4 of this topic dated 10 05 09? Have you tried with this switch (or the original left mouse button in the modified mouse if it's still there) to see if it will trigger Cinecap. I found the modified mouse goes to sleep after a while and needs to be unplugged from the USB and plugged back in again to wake it up. Well, I have not, but will do so. First the good news. My system is working very well and I get a very sharp picture. Camera, lens and projector now "fixed" on a piece of wood. I started with one film last night, and half way through, the capturing/mouse started triggering erratically. I suppose this is what you call "go to sleep". So it is just a switch to install? After how long do you find it happening? Do you check regularly if it is capturing or do you switch it off and on at regular intervals. Do you stop the projector then? Now that it works, I will start experimenting with the other resistors. Will need to wait till the weekend to do that. I am concerned about the comments about the one resistor, as you said the current might be too high. Will try with the 180 Ohm again. Secondly- post processing- what do people use? I used Virtualdub in the past and I am quite familiar with it. If someone is using it, what filters are they using? In the past I sharpened it a bit, used levels to get a proper black and played with the colour. This time I will need to "flip" the image as well. A huge thank you from me!! Albie

dblan9 posted 2009 Jul 18 21:00

I have a stupid question... is there a recommended or better size for the condenser lens? I looked into purchasing a Plano Convex lens and there is multiple sizes. Thank you

davealtson posted 2009 Aug 31 23:13

Wouldn't it be better to remove the video camera lens and project directly onto the ccd sensor? Or would that not work?

JamesRueben posted 2009 Sep 06 04:55

avz10 : First the good news. My system is working very well and I get a very sharp picture. Camera, lens and projector now "fixed" on a piece of wood. I started with one film last night, and half way through, the capturing/mouse started triggering erratically. I suppose this is what you call "go to sleep". So it is just a switch to install? After how long do you find it happening? Do you check regularly if it is capturing or do you switch it off and on at regular intervals. Do you stop the projector then? Now that it works, I will start experimenting with the other resistors. Will need to wait till the weekend to do that. I am concerned about the comments about the one resistor, as you said the current might be too high. Will try with the 180 Ohm again. Secondly- post processing- what do people use? I used Virtualdub in the past and I am quite familiar with it. If someone is using it, what filters are they using? In the past I sharpened it a bit, used levels to get a proper black and played with the colour. This time I will need to "flip" the image as well. Albie Glad to hear you got your setup working. When I talked about the mouse going to sleep, this is when I took a long time getting all the optical alignment set up. When I finished aligning and went to start capturing I would find the mouse clicks would not register. This is why I added the switch SW2 in parallel with the opto transistor so I could force it to capture a frame without running the film through and end up rewinding. Once I started capturing the mouse would never go to sleep. I have had no problem capturing 400' in one go. One thing I did in the early days was to stick a label over the original LED on the modified mouse (the one it uses to detect mouse movement). This was so it wouldn't move the cursor on screen if I accidentally knocked it. What I found doing this is that the mouse cursor would drift very slowly, so after a few minutes it came off the button in Cinecap and the capturing would stop. I took the label off and it stopped drifting. It could be that your mouse cursor is gradually drifting off the button, you would have to watch it to see if this is the case. I cannot think of another reason why the capture would become intermittent once you have started. I use Sony Vegas Movie Studio for editing and to adjust colour balance/brightness. Movie Studio comes with DVD Architect which allows you to create whatever structure you want for your DVD. I tried some other programs a few years ago but found they did not allow me to do everything I wanted . The other programs may have added features since then, but I am happy with Sony. Most of this kind of software allows you to download a trial version with a 14 or 30 day licence. I suggest you download a few and see which you get on with. A lot is down to personal preference and what you want to do with the finished product. dblan9 : is there a recommended or better size for the condenser lens? I looked into purchasing a Plano Convex lens and there is multiple sizes. Thank you I bought the largest lens I could find at a reasonable price on eBay. Mine is 117 mm diameter. davealtson : Wouldn't it be better to remove the video camera lens and project directly onto the ccd sensor? Or would that not work? You could remove the camcorder lens but this may be more trouble than it is worth. You will invalidate your guarantee for a start and will allow dust to get onto the CCD. There is a website at http://www.super-8.be/s8_Eindex.htm where he used a CCD but he also added more lenses for focussing.

jorler posted 2009 Oct 19 07:38

Hi. I am so intruiged with this idea that I want to build it too. Not that I have so many old films to copy, just the engineer in me :) What I need some advice/help with is this plano convex lens. I cannot find one... maybe I am, looking in the wrong places, BUT, I have been offerred an old big lens from one of those old fashioned (modern technology compared to 8mm... but I digress) 3 tube TV projectors. Will this type of lens do the job? I am not sure if it is a plano convex or not. Thanks in advance. Clive Johannesburg South Africa

filmboss80 posted 2009 Oct 19 09:00

I don't know about shipping to South Africa, but here is a US link for plano-convex lenses: http://www.anchoroptics.com/catalog/product.cfm?id=367

ronypony posted 2009 Oct 21 09:22

This is the size of Plano convex lens you require to build a telecine unit. Plano convex lenses are flat on one side and curved on the other. Ebay listing...very cheap price for such a big lens. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=22049047 ... 374wt_1084

jorler posted 2009 Oct 22 03:42

I found an old projector lens, from one of these old Sony CRT projectors. I think it will do the trick. (see attached photo). Its actually got 3 lenses in each one of the 3 tubes, but one of the lenses should do the job fine. Now to create a light sensor trigger that I hope to mount on the back side of the shutter mechanism....somehow...:) I will see what plan I need to make once I get to that stage. thanks for the helpful responses. Clive

rmossige posted 2009 Nov 14 15:53

Hi! I have been experimenting with DIY telecine, and stumbled over this thread. Since the original plans for the setup are nowhere to be found, I have a few questions. I am using a Eumig S926GL projector and a Sony EX1 camera. I get pretty decent results filming off a wall. I have no problems with flicker, the variable speed of the projector combined with the ECS shutter system of the EX1 eliminates flicker, so a frame-by-frame setup won't be necessary. But I still have som issues with sharpness and uniformity of image illumination. I'm thinking of buying a plano convex lens and some diffusing material, but is there something else that I need? What is the reason for replacing the bulb with a lower effect one? I am also wondering whether I will be able to telecine negative film with a setup like this? I read somewhere that it's not possible to DIY telecine negative film, but I can't understand why. Any thoughts?

jorler posted 2009 Nov 15 23:42

Hi. negative film, hmmm, should work, you will have to make it positive on your computer, but it should work. Give it a try and see. regards Clive

ronypony posted 2009 Nov 16 11:06

rmossige : Hi! I have been experimenting with DIY telecine, and stumbled over this thread. Since the original plans for the setup are nowhere to be found, I have a few questions. I am using a Eumig S926GL projector and a Sony EX1 camera. I get pretty decent results filming off a wall. I have no problems with flicker, the variable speed of the projector combined with the ECS shutter system of the EX1 eliminates flicker, so a frame-by-frame setup won't be necessary. But I still have som issues with sharpness and uniformity of image illumination. I'm thinking of buying a plano convex lens and some diffusing material, but is there something else that I need? What is the reason for replacing the bulb with a lower effect one? I am also wondering whether I will be able to telecine negative film with a setup like this? I read somewhere that it's not possible to DIY telecine negative film, but I can't understand why. Any thoughts? OK firstly concerning the low wattage bulb swap...if you use the original 50w/100w bulb and you project your films onto the surface of a plano convex lens you will see nothing...the original high power bulb (needed for projecting a small image onto a wall/screen) is far too bright. Once you swap out the original bulb for a lower wattage bulb you will not be able to project your films onto a screen/wall. The film image is 'projected' onto the surface of the plano-convex lens and appears to 'float' in the lens...this is what you focus your camcorder on and record. The instructions for achieving this are all in this (what has become) very long thread :) I really don't think you could use this particular DIY unit to telecine negative film stock and achieve acceptable results..you could try and use a computer to reverse the captured images...but I would not hold my breath :) This is of course a DIY solution to telecine...you can achieve some fantastic results with patience...the design has its limitations and there are better designs out there for constructing home made telecine machines using machine cameras...eliminating the need for the plano-convex lens...

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